# Shodan and AClockWorkMelon **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705 "2010-10-19T21:24:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/101 "2010-10-21T05:14:55Z")
Still, you must admire whatever personal philosophy has led him to be such a warm and generous person. Kind of a cross between the Dalai Lama and Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/102 "2010-10-21T12:21:24Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > From a new thread in GD: > > **Shodan** makes the same incorrect point he made in the earlier thread, even though I explained his error, and **also manages to insult a woman whose feet he’s not worthy to lick**. Hell – he’s not worthy enough to lick her dog’s feet. > > I don’t “keep score” on Dopers, so often forget which ones of you are liberals, which ones are right-wingers, etc., and even end up whoooshed a lot. 😃 But my subconscious has tuned in to the Doper named **Shodan** : He thinks he’s intelligent, but almost everything he says is incorrect. Not just incorrect in the sense of an uneducated imbecile, but incorrect like a guy who’s had 1 or 2 years of college, so thinks he’s erudite but is actually even more of a racist prick than the proverbial village fool. The really sad thing is this: I’d not be surprised if **Shodan** actually has an above-average I.Q.! Instead some bitterness or sexual frustration has left him so closed-minded that he appears to have a severe cognitive deficit. > > I see him corrected frequently. He then goes silent (one imagines a dog slinking off tail between legs), and reappears in a new thread spouting the exact same vomitous tripe that was refuted ! His posts are so devoid of useful content, and have such twisted thinking, that for a while I thought he was just a “facetious” guy “whoooshing.” But I’ve never seen evidence of humor, or any likeable emotion, and am starting to feel sorry for the asshole. I hope he doesn’t read this message – I’ll guess he already hates himself enough. > > There may be a few Dopers even stupider and more insolent than **Shodan** (though none come to mind), but they mostly have redeeming amusement value. **Shodan** is just a real drag. You really are an idiot, aren’t you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/103 "2010-10-21T13:51:15Z")
@ Chefguy: I am no Evil Economist fan, but I don’t think that you read his post very closely. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/104 "2010-10-21T13:58:19Z")
You guys are the best. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/105 "2010-10-21T13:59:30Z")
Only when we are drinking. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/106 "2010-10-21T14:06:14Z")
Shodan, Can you clarify your stance for me please? Are you saying that AA does not work at all and therefore you believe that the OP of that other thread should avoid it, or do you concede that AA does work for some people but no more so than other methods out there? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/107 "2010-10-21T14:55:24Z")
AA has no effect. Whether you join AA or not will make no difference to your ultimate ability to quit drinking. There is no good evidence that AA “works for some people”, because as far as the statistics go, people who join AA are no more likely to quit drinking as they would be after doing any other form of recovery, or no form at all. The idea that AA “works for some people” is a logical fallacy. As I said earlier, wearing different color socks is not evidence that wearing different color socks “works for some people”. Because there is no difference in outcome whether you wear different color socks or not. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/108 "2010-10-21T15:15:05Z")
So what do you do about all of those sober people running around that say that AA is what did it for them? It looks to me as though your conclusion that AA has no effect is logically flawed. While I find the cited studies problematic on a lot of levels I can see how they would lead someone to conclude that AA has no more effect than anything else. But to reach the conclusion that AA has no effect based on those studies strikes me as deciding an outcome and then trying to work backwards to justifying it. Are you saying that the people who have gone to AA and got sober would have gotten sober no matter what they did, including nothing? Are people just struck sober? Your position makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/109 "2010-10-21T15:28:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Still, you must admire whatever personal philosophy has led him to be such a warm and generous person. Kind of a cross between the Dalai Lama and Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog. I should probably stick some sort of passive-aggressive sniping, instead. I could “disguise” it as “cleverness.” People who do that are better people than meanies like me. Meh, still needs work. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/110 "2010-10-21T15:32:11Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > So what do you do about all of those sober people running around that say that AA is what did it for them? > > It looks to me as though your conclusion that AA has no effect is logically flawed. While I find the cited studies problematic on a lot of levels I can see how they would lead someone to conclude that AA has no more effect than anything else. But to reach the conclusion that AA has no effect based on those studies strikes me as deciding an outcome and then trying to work backwards to justifying it. > > Are you saying that the people who have gone to AA and got sober would have gotten sober no matter what they did, including nothing? Are people just struck sober? Your position makes no sense. Some people get sober all the time. Some of them will be in AA when they do. You’re falling into the trap of homeopaths and astrologers here. Plenty of people got better while taking homeopathic medicine. But they did it because people usually get better. Drinking snake oil just gets the credit. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/111 "2010-10-21T15:35:28Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > So what do you do about all of those sober people running around that say that AA is what did it for them? > > It looks to me as though your conclusion that AA has no effect is logically flawed. While I find the cited studies problematic on a lot of levels I can see how they would lead someone to conclude that AA has no more effect than anything else. But to reach the conclusion that AA has no effect based on those studies strikes me as deciding an outcome and then trying to work backwards to justifying it. > > Are you saying that the people who have gone to AA and got sober would have gotten sober no matter what they did, including nothing? Are people just struck sober? Your position makes no sense. I would say that successfully stopping drinking requires the formation of the proper mental resolve. Clearly for some, joining AA merely marks the point when they have come to that resolve. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/112 "2010-10-21T15:43:32Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > Are you saying that the people who have gone to AA and got sober would have gotten sober no matter what they did, including nothing? Are people just struck sober? Your position makes no sense. Well, yes. Some people go to AA and then immediately get hit by cars. Does that mean AA helps you get hit by a car? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/113 "2010-10-21T16:05:40Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > But to reach the conclusion that AA has no effect based on those studies strikes me as deciding an outcome and then trying to work backwards to justifying it. No, that’s what the studies seemed to show. > [@](#): > > Are you saying that the people who have gone to AA and got sober would have gotten sober no matter what they did, including nothing? Are people just struck sober? Your position makes no sense. Let’s try this one more time. I divide a group of alcoholics into two equal parts. One gets no treatment, the other group sings “The Star Spangled Banner” every morning before breakfast. Wait a year. At the end of the year, five alcoholics from each group are sober and abstinent. One would conclude, therefore, that singing “The Star-Spangled Banner” is the same as doing nothing. “But”, you say, “how do you account for all those people who got sober after they sang our national anthem?” The point is, there is nothing to account for. The studies that you seem to have so much trouble understanding are designed to find out what effect AA has on the ability of people to become sober. There is no such effect. Whether or not you go to AA, or sing the Star Spangled Banner, or just grit your teeth and try, the net effect is no different than if you had done anything else. In any situation like this, you will always get people who say “I tried everything - AA, treatment, Rational Recovery, quitting on my own - but nothing worked until I started singing the Star Spangled Banner every morning before breakfast. That helped me get sober.” It is a natural human tendency to credit recovery from an illness to whatever you were doing when you started to get better. It happens all the time, which is why there is a name for it - _post hoc, ergo propter hoc_. If you got sober, that’s great - good for you. But the sun doesn’t necessarily come up because the rooster crowed. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/114 "2010-10-21T16:36:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, that’s what the studies seemed to show. > > Let’s try this one more time. > > I divide a group of alcoholics into two equal parts. One gets no treatment, the other group sings “The Star Spangled Banner” every morning before breakfast. Wait a year. > > At the end of the year, five alcoholics from each group are sober and abstinent. One would conclude, therefore, that singing “The Star-Spangled Banner” is the same as doing nothing. > > “But”, you say, “how do you account for all those people who got sober after they sang our national anthem?” > > The point is, there is nothing to account for. The studies that you seem to have so much trouble understanding are designed to find out what effect AA has on the ability of people to become sober. > > There is no such effect. Whether or not you go to AA, or sing the Star Spangled Banner, or just grit your teeth and try, the net effect is no different than if you had done anything else. > > In any situation like this, you will always get people who say “I tried everything - AA, treatment, Rational Recovery, quitting on my own - but nothing worked until I started singing the Star Spangled Banner every morning before breakfast. That helped me get sober.” It is a natural human tendency to credit recovery from an illness to whatever you were doing when you started to get better. It happens all the time, which is why there is a name for it - _post hoc, ergo propter hoc_. > > If you got sober, that’s great - good for you. But the sun doesn’t necessarily come up because the rooster crowed. > Regards, > Shodan Ok, ok, I get all that. But tell me something. How do you explain the people that went to AA and _did_ get sober. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/115 "2010-10-21T16:39:00Z")
Shodan, can you please answer this question directly for me. Skip your hypothetical studies please. Do you claim that all of the people that are currently sober and currently in AA would be sober had they never joined AA? Please limit your response to “yes” or “no”. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/116 "2010-10-21T16:44:02Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > How do you explain the people that went to AA and _did_ get sober. The same way I explain the people who sang the Star Spangled Banner every morning and got sober. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/117 "2010-10-21T16:45:33Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > Shodan, can you please answer this question directly for me. Skip your hypothetical studies please. Do you claim that all of the people that are currently sober and currently in AA would be sober had they never joined AA? Please limit your response to “yes” or “no”. > > Thanks in advance. I ask again. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/118 "2010-10-21T16:46:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The same way I explain the people who sang the Star Spangled Banner every morning and got sober. > > Regards, > Shodan Yeah. I get it. I was joking. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/119 "2010-10-21T16:50:38Z")
Studies apply to groups, not individuals. So the correct answer to your question is not “yes” or “no”. It is “the people who are in AA and sober had the same chance of being sober if they had done anything else other than join AA”. That is as far as the studies can establish. If you have some kind of evidence (by which I do not mean anecdotes) that AA works better than nothing for people who have tried everything else, then by all means let’s see it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/120 "2010-10-21T16:51:38Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Yeah. I get it. I was joking. :smack: I must have been drunk. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705.md?page=7)