# Shodan, Come, Let Us Reason Together **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 1, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072 "2004-10-01T17:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/1 "2004-10-01T17:49:20Z")
In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=278130), which had as a topic former President Jimmy Carter’s pointing out that the recommendations of a bipartisan commission which he and former President Ford had served on regarding reforms to Florida (and other states) electoral practices to prevent a recurrence of the 2000 election disputes had generally not been implemented, **Shodan** decided to join the crowd in casting aspersions on President Carter, including in particular his having mentioned asking his daughter what her greatest concern was. Here’s an extract from his most recent post there, in which he responds to my discussing that issue. > [@Polycarp](#): > > Shodan, that’s an interesting clarification. But kindly notice that he did not ask her advice on nuclear war; he asked her what her opinion of the most important issue is. > [@Shodan](#): > > I think the point was that Carter was apparently letting a twelve year old set the agenda for his foreign policy. Which is naive to the point of being ridiculous. > [@Polycarp](#): > > If any person here thinks that Jimmy Carter’s past foibles are sufficient reason not to have a concern about whether fair and reliable elections can be held in Florida in 33 days – then he may be being a good Republican (or Democrat), but he’s being a damn poor American. > [@Shodan](#): > > Yeah right - anyone who disagrees with Carter is being a bad American. > > And anyone who supports Bush for President is a traitor, and anyone who disagrees with Bush’s foreign policy is a supporter of terrorism, and anyone who doesn’t support PETA wants to kill puppies, and so on, and so on. > > You people get so freaking excited when that kind of rhetoric comes from the right, and then turn around and do exactly the same thing from the Left. > > Whatever. > > Regards, > Shodan I think the only proper response to this is suitable only for the Pit. Look, asshole. I am interested in **fair and honest** elections, which choose the man preferred by a majority of voters (given how our system works, electoral college with winner-takes-all in most states, and all the other trimmings) for the job. I am not interested in getting into whether or not one agrees with a past President, into making accusations about his abilities or lack of them, nor suggesting that one must agree with him to be a good American. And you seem to be so purblind to the idea that your beloved Mr. Bush and his cronies might possibly be **doing something dishonest** that you see any questions raised about whether Mr. Carter might have a point in his criticisms, as being an attack on you and on him. Quite bluntly, if your opinion of the issue raised in that thread is Mr. Carter’s credibility, then you have lost all capacity for rational discourse. The issue is, can Florida conduct elections that will not be subject to the potential for electoral fraud by either party. The answer is, a bipartisan commission says that they have failed to protect themselves against that potential. Get off the fucking high horse, and pay attention to the issue. If a majority of Americans **honestly** choose Mr. Bush, than much as I dislike him and his policies, it’s my job to suck it up and accept him as my President for another four years. That’s called _the rule of law_; it’s why we didn’t have a revolt after the 2000 vote grab down there – because Democrats were prepared to go by the decision of the people selected to make those decisions, that the final tally awarding Mr. Bush Florida’s electoral votes and therefore the Presidency was what was to be accepted. There is scarcely an American who doesn’t think there were **some** problems in Florida’s vote-tallying process. Even the most rabid Republicans are quick to point out the problems with the military ballots’ postmarks and how they were challenged by the Democrats. Butterfly ballots and hanging chads have become catchphrases thanks to the arguments. I personally don’t give a good sweet fuck whether you think that Jimmy Carter was the worst thing ever to happen to America – he’s speaking out on an issue with substantive questions, which does not happen to be his personal issue but one raised by a bipartisan commission. I did not and will not call anyone supporting Mr. Bush a traitor, nor accuse someone of anti-Americanism because they dislike Mr. Carter. I find that conduct vile, and have mentioned how despicable Ann Coulter is for engaging in it. My issue is in seeing that the elections be fairly conducted and not susceptible to fraud – **no matter who wins**. Your issue seems to be in seeing Mr. Bush win, no matter how dishonest he needs to be to win the election. And that makes you beneath contempt. You used to be a sound debater whom I could respect. Suddenly you’ve turned into someone who throws insulting accusations around. My statement was very explicit: Don’t use Mr. Carter’s past mistakes to deflect attention from the issue he raises, which is a valid one: there were problems in Florida in 2000; those problems have not been fixed. You chose to take it as a partisan debate. Well, fine – if it’s your opinion that fair and free elections are a partisan issue, I’m **proud** to be a part of the party that supports having them. Undecided voters, please take note: a **conservative Republican** thinks that the question of whether we should have elections untainted by fraud is a partisan issue, and is prepared to say that anyone calling for them is opposed to Mr. Bush. Therefore, kindly cast your votes on the basis of whether you approve of free elections not susceptible to tampering – One of Mr. Bush’s own supporters doesn’t believe that is a legitimate concern for a voter to have. I used to think that the folks accusing Mr. Ashcroft of gutting the Bill of Rights were getting just a trifle extreme – but here we have a man saying, “Don’t worry whether someone is going to defraud you of your vote; anyone who says otherwise is just a Bush-hater.” Apparently the entire idea of a Republican form of government, where your vote counts, is no longer a Republican virtue. What the **fuck** is wrong with you, **Shodan**? Has this turned into such a black-and-white issue for you that you see no problem with the issues raised? Do you **really** think that nobody has a right to an opinion except you and those who agree with you? Do you think that children have no right to have concerns about issues? I solemnly promise you that if Mr. Bush wins the upcoming election **fairly** , with **no** substantiatable accusations of fraud, I will start a thread in Great Debates acknowledging that I was wrong. Do you think, perhaps, that you can see the idea that the question of **potential electoral fraud** , not partisan politics, is worth dealing with? Or does partisanship mean more to you than the values of free elections these days? If so, I truly pity you. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/2 "2004-10-01T18:19:04Z")
> [@Poly](#): > > I used to think that the folks accusing Mr. Ashcroft of gutting the Bill of Rights were getting just a trifle extreme – but here we have a man saying, “Don’t worry whether someone is going to defraud you of your vote; anyone who says otherwise is just a Bush-hater.” Hate to say I told you so, but, well, I told you so. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/3 "2004-10-01T18:27:19Z")
> [@Donald Rumsfeld](#): > > Well, so be it. Nothing’s perfect in life, so you have an election that’s not quite perfect. Is it better than not having an election? You bet Golf clap for **Poly** ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/4 "2004-10-01T18:31:13Z")
I seem to remember having to spank someone over that Jimmy/Amy Carter lie once before on this board. I can’t swear it was **Shodan** but it wouldn’t surprise me. Yeah, during a debate Carter said that he had asked his daughter what she thought was the most important issue in America. She said nukes and somehow the right wing glurge machine has turned that into Jimmy “letting Amy set policy.” One simple reading of the transcript sets the lie to that bullshit. I’m amazed that any veteran Doper would even try to use something like that around here. You might as well say “hey, everyone, please kick me in the balls.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/5 "2004-10-01T18:33:35Z")
BTW, I also agree that it’s ridiculous to say that wanting fair elections is a partisan issue. It’s tantamount to admitting that the Republicans want an _unfair_ election. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/6 "2004-10-01T18:44:49Z")
Great OP Polycarp! It never fails to amaze me that few Republicans are interested in the election being as fair as humanly possible. Why is that? Hmmm… > [@Polycarp](#): > > That’s called _the rule of law_; it’s why we didn’t have a revolt after the 2000 vote grab down there – because Democrats were prepared to go by the decision of the people selected to make those decisions, that the final tally awarding Mr. Bush Florida’s electoral votes and therefore the Presidency was what was to be accepted. > > There is scarcely an American who doesn’t think there were **some** problems in Florida’s vote-tallying process. Even the most rabid Republicans are quick to point out the problems with the military ballots’ postmarks and how they were challenged by the Democrats. Butterfly ballots and hanging chads have become catchphrases thanks to the arguments. We didn’t revolt because we were too stunned. Even beyond all the problems that happened in Florida proper, **THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA STOLE THE ELECTION**. It doesn’t matter who would have ultimately “won,” the world never had a chance to find out. If Bush did in fact get more votes (which I believe only came through vote suppression anyway) IT DOESN’T MATTER. We were not allowed to find out. I’ve had nothing but disgust for the Supreme Court since that day. I am not alone. > [@](#): > > [None Dare Call It Treason](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010205&s=bugliosi) by [Vincent Bugliosi](http://www.thenation.com/directory/bios/bio.mhtml?id=157) > > In the December 12 ruling by the US Supreme Court handing the election to George Bush, the Court committed the unpardonable sin of being a knowing surrogate for the Republican Party instead of being an impartial arbiter of the law. If you doubt this, try to imagine Al Gore’s and George Bush’s roles being reversed and ask yourself if you can conceive of Justice Antonin Scalia and his four conservative brethren issuing an emergency order on December 9 stopping the counting of ballots (at a time when Gore’s lead had shrunk to 154 votes) on the grounds that if it continued, Gore could suffer “irreparable harm,” and then subsequently, on December 12, bequeathing the election to Gore on equal protection grounds. If you can, then I suppose you can also imagine seeing a man jumping away from his own shadow, Frenchmen no longer drinking wine. > > … > Sometimes the body politic is lulled into thinking along unreasoned lines. The “conventional wisdom” emerging immediately after the Court’s ruling seemed to be that the Court, by its political ruling, had only lost a lot of credibility and altitude in the minds of many people. But these critics of the ruling, even those who flat-out say the Court “stole” the election, apparently have not stopped to realize the inappropriateness of their tepid position vis-à-vis what the Court did. You mean you can steal a presidential election and your only retribution is that some people don’t have as much respect for you, as much confidence in you? That’s all? If, indeed, the Court, as the critics say, made a politically motivated ruling (which it unquestionably did), this is tantamount to saying, and can only mean, that the Court did not base its ruling on the law. And if this is so (which again, it unquestionably is), this means that these five Justices deliberately and knowingly decided to nullify the votes of the 50 million Americans who voted for Al Gore and to steal the election for Bush. Of course, nothing could possibly be more serious in its enormous ramifications. The stark reality, and I say this with every fiber of my being, is that the institution Americans trust the most to protect its freedoms and principles committed one of the biggest and most serious crimes this nation has ever seen–pure and simple, the theft of the presidency. And by definition, the perpetrators of this crime have to be denominated criminals. > > Since the notion of five Supreme Court Justices being criminals is so alien to our sensibilities and previously held beliefs, and since, for the most part, people see and hear, as Thoreau said, what they expect to see and hear, most readers will find my characterization of these Justices to be intellectually incongruous. But make no mistake about it, I think my background in the criminal law is sufficient to inform you that Scalia, Thomas et al. are criminals in the very truest sense of the word. > … > > These five Justices, by their conduct, have forfeited the right to be respected, and only by treating them the way they deserve to be treated can we demonstrate our respect for the rule of law they defiled, and insure that their successors will not engage in similarly criminal conduct. > > … > **That an election for an American President can be stolen by the highest court in the land under the deliberate pretext of an inapplicable constitutional provision has got to be one of the most frightening and dangerous events ever to have occurred in this country. Until this act–which is treasonous, though again not technically, in its sweeping implications–is somehow rectified (and I do not know how this can be done), can we be serene about continuing to place the adjective “great” before the name of this country?** Regarding Florida 2004, here are some tidbits I’ve gathered in the past few weeks. It’s just a small sample of weird things going on in Florida. (These come from a cut and paste of a political e-mail I send my husband) > [@](#): > > ====================== > > What’s the matter with Florida? (besides hurricanes), Part 1 > > Bushco misses the deadline to be be on the Florida ballot! > > > [@](#): > > > > Did Bush camp err on ballot papers? > > [http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/11/Decision2004/Did\_Bush\_camp\_err\_on\_.shtml](http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/11/Decision2004/Did_Bush_camp_err_on_.shtml) > > > > State law sets a Sept. 1 deadline for the governor to certify a list of presidential electors for each party’s candidates. > > > > But Sept. 1 was also the day President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney were being nominated at their party’ convention in New York. Consequently, some of their paperwork did not arrive at state elections headquarters until Sept. 2, a day after Gov. Jeb Bush certified the candidates for president. > > But Dems aren’t going to challenge it. I wonder if the Bush camp would be so generous if it had been Kerry. At the least they would have made an issue of the dems “not having their shit together.” > > ==== > > What’s the matter with Florida?, Part 2 > > (old, but I just saw it) > > > [@](#): > > > > Fla. Officials Maintain Hand Recounts Ban > > [Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040831/ap_on_el_ge/touchscreen_voting_1) > > > > Election officials said a new rule barring hand recounts in 15 counties with touchscreen voting systems will remain in place until after Tuesday’s primary — despite a judge’s invalidation of the rule. > > > > The rule will stand until a 30-day appeal period expires, Dawn Roberts, director of the Division of Elections, said Monday. > > > > In April, Secretary of State Glenda Hood issued a rule preventing manual recounts. Hood has said the machines don’t require a paper trail. > > ==== > > What’s the matter with Florida?, Part 3 > > > [@](#): > > > > Florida OK’s Nader’s Name on Election Ballot > > [Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040913/pl_nm/campaign_florida_dc&cid=615&ncid=2043) > > > > - despite a court order to the contrary > > - Division of Elections director Dawn Roberts said the uncertainty of Hurricane Ivan, which could hit parts of the state by week’s end, forced her to act. (Psst, Dawn, Ivan’s turning away from the body of Florida) > > > > ==== > > > > What’s the matter with Florida?, Part 4 > > > > Judge again orders Nader off Florida’s ballot > > [http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/F/FL\_NADER\_FLORIDA\_FLOL-?SITE=FLPET&SECTION=STATE&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/F/FL_NADER_FLORIDA_FLOL-?SITE=FLPET&SECTION=STATE&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) > > > > Ralph Nader is again off Florida’s presidential ballot, at least for now. > > > > Circuit Judge P. Kevin Davey issued a second order Wednesday that removes Nader’s name from the November ballot, including ballots already being sent to overseas military. He ordered Secretary of State Glenda Hood to notify county election chiefs of his decision as the hearing continued. > > ==== > > What’s the matter with Florida?, Part 5 > > > [@](#): > > > > Florida High Court Says Nader Must Be on Ballot > > [http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=6269747](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=6269747) > > > > Florida’s highest court ruled Friday that independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader must be allowed to compete in the 2004 election in the state, delivering a possible boost to President Bush. > > “In making our decision in this case, we are guided by the overriding constitutional principle in favor of ballot access,” the Florida Supreme Court said in its ruling. > > ==== > > What’s the matter with Florida?, Part 6 > > > [@](#): > > > > U.S. Probes Fla. Voter Intimidation Claims > > [http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Voter-Intimidation.html](http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Voter-Intimidation.html) > > > > The Justice Department is investigating accusations that Florida law enforcement officers intimidated elderly black voters during a probe of voting fraud last spring. > > > > Sheldon Bradshaw, principal deputy assistant attorney general with the department’s Civil Rights Division, disclosed the investigation after Mary Frances Berry, chairwoman of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, raised the matter at a commission hearing Friday. > > > > `We are aware, and we have opened an investigation,'' Bradshaw said. `I’m not at liberty to discuss details’’ because the probe is ongoing, he said. > > > > There have been growing calls for a federal investigation of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement’s response to allegations of voter fraud in Orlando’s mayoral election. Democrat Buddy Dyer’s narrow victory sparked accusations that a black activist may have improperly filled out absentee ballots. FDLE agents interviewed dozens of voters who cast absentee ballots. > > > > Civil rights groups and Democrats contended the agents’ presence and behavior, including allegedly displaying their guns, intimidated the minority voters they visited. > > # Hmmm, would that be _John Ashcroft’s_ Department of Justice? Good freaking luck with that. > > What’s the matter with Florida?, Part 7 > > > [@](#): > > > > [http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Voter-Intimidation.html](http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Voter-Intimidation.html) > > > > Also at the Civil Rights Commission hearing: > > > > –Bradshaw said the Justice Department was sending hundreds of observers to polling places Nov. 2 in the ``most extensive monitoring of an election in recent history.’’ > > > > –Berry and civil rights group officials said disenfranchisement of minority voters remains a problem. ``We’re concerned about disparate treatment, we’re concerned about the laws being enforced unfairly,’’ said Berry, a Democrat. > > ==== > > What’s the matter with Florida?, Part 8 > > > [@](#): > > > > Politics and sleaze envelop Orlando > > [http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=566037](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=566037) > > > > As the presidential campaign approaches its showdown, the Republicans in the state run by George Bush’s brother are up to their tricks again. Andrew Gumbel reports from the heart of Florida > > > > 27 September 2004 > > In Orlando, the Florida home of Disneyworld and a vital political battleground, the campaign for the November presidential election is getting sly, nasty and very, very personal. Normally, at this stage of the proceedings, Ezzie Thomas, a well-known character on the predominantly African-American west side of town, would be out chatting to the people, registering them to vote before the 4 October deadline and helping them with absentee ballots if they do not think they will have time to make it to the polls on election day. But the 73-year-old Mr Thomas, an affable ladies’ man, is staying out of public view for fear of exacerbating what is already a highly controversial - and highly political - criminal investigation of his election-related activities. > > > > A similarly low profile is being taken by Steve Clelland, the head of the local firefighters’ union. Last week, he did not even dare attend a local appearance by John Kerry, the candidate he is supporting for President, in case it added to the legal troubles facing his own organisation. The firefighters are also subject to a criminal investigation, the chief allegation - for which no evidence has been produced - being that they colluded with City Hall to set up an illegal slush fund for political campaigning. > > > > What makes the troubles facing the two men particularly sinister is that they are declared Kerry supporters, with the power to bring in hundreds if not thousands of votes for the Democratic Party. The investigations are being conducted by the state police, known as the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE), which reports directly to Governor Jeb Bush, brother of President George Bush. > > > > The Republicans, naturally, deny the investigations are politically motivated. But even they acknowledge that a chill has spread through Orlando’s overwhelmingly Democratic black voting community after a flurry of unannounced visits by armed state police to at least 52 homes whose mostly elderly residents had signed up for an absentee ballot with Mr Thomas’s help. > > > > **The Republicans have been hard put to explain what exactly the two men have done wrong. The media has aired official allegations ranging from vote fraud to campaign finance irregularities to racketeering, but no charges have been brought, despite exhaustive investigations. A grand jury examining allegations concerning the firefighters’ union concluded that no laws had been broken, which has not deterred the FDLE from pursuing the case.** > > ==== > > What’s the matter with Florida?, Part 9 > > > [@](#): > > > > Politics and sleaze envelop Orlando > > [http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=566037](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=566037) > > > > (from that same long article) > > > > And Mayor Hood, not Mayor Dyer, allowed the firefighters’ union to spend up to $40,000 a year in city funds on political activities. In those days, the firefighters were considered allies of the Republican establishment in Orange County and had endorsed George Bush for President in 2000. But Mr Clelland and his members were deeply disappointed by the White House’s failure to follow through on promises to put an extra 100,000 firefighters on American streets and update their equipment. So, in early June, they joined a statewide union vote endorsing Mr Kerry for President in 2004. > > > > Days later, the FDLE, with television cameras in tow, raided City Hall, seized several computers and announced that the union and its so-called “leave bank” were being investigated. The beefy Mr Clelland said he was scared to death in his interview with the FDLE supervisor in Orlando and was told he might be slung into jail if he insisted on having his lawyer present. He duly asked Mr Egan to leave the room. > > > > Like the black absentee voters, Mr Clelland also noticed the officer tapping the 9mm pistol in his ankle holster as he let loose his barrage of questions. “You would think these investigators were going after John Gotti [the late Mafia don],” he said bitterly. “Their actions have gutted this organisation locally.” After the grand jury ruled that the union leave bank was legal, Mayor Dyer asked Florida’s attorney general for a ruling to get the FDLE off their backs. But Mayor Dyer’s bad luck was that he had run for the office of attorney general in 2002, and his successful Republican opponent, Charlie Crist, was not about to cut him any slack. Mr Crist has refused to offer an opinion either way. > > ==== > > Others know what’s the matter with Florida > > Carter fears Florida vote trouble > [BBC NEWS | Americas | Carter fears Florida vote trouble](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3693354.stm) > > Carter has monitored more than 50 elections worldwide. Voting arrangements in Florida do not meet “basic international requirements” and could undermine the US election, former US President Jimmy Carter says. > > He said a repeat of the irregularities of the much-disputed 2000 election - which gave President George W Bush the narrowest of wins - “seems likely”. > > Mr Carter, a veteran observer of polls worldwide, also accused Florida’s top election official of “bias”. > … > In an article in the Washington Post newspaper, Mr Carter, a Democrat, said that he and ex-President Gerald Ford, a Republican, had been asked to draw up recommendations for changes after the last vote in Florida was marred by arguments over the counting of ballots. Mr Carter said the reforms they came up with had still not been implemented. > > He accused Florida Secretary of State Glenda Hood, a Republican, of trying to get the name of independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader included on the state ballot, knowing he might divert Democrat votes. > > He also said: “A fumbling attempt has been made recently to disqualify 22,000 African Americans (likely Democrats), but only 61 Hispanics (likely Republicans), as alleged felons.” > > Mr Carter said Florida Governor Jeb Bush - brother of the president - had “taken no steps to correct these departures from principles of fair and equal treatment or to prevent them in the future”. > > “It is unconscionable to perpetuate fraudulent or biased electoral practices in any nation,” he added. “With reforms unlikely at this late stage of the election, perhaps the only recourse will be to focus maximum public scrutiny on the suspicious process in Florida.” > > ==== > > Others know what’s the matter with Florida (and Ohio, and Pennsylvania…) > > > [@](#): > > > > [VOA - Voice of America English News](http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=CC7DDE1E-6EC9-4658-B6C40F04D1080C4A&title=International%20Monitors%20Prepare%20to%20Observe%20US%20Presidential%20Election%20&catOID=45C9C78F-88AD-11D4-A57200A0CC5EE46C&categoryname=USA) > > > > (helluva link!) > > > > At least two delegations of foreign observers from more than a dozen countries are preparing to monitor the U.S. presidential election in November. Members of one observer group say monitoring is an important part of the electoral process to ensure transparency and share experiences in the interest of improving the democratic process around the world. > > > > A San Francisco-based, non-governmental organization, Global Exchange, is hosting 20 foreign observers from 15 countries. > > ==== > > Another link on the story > > # [http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/politics/2799842](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/politics/2799842) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/7 "2004-10-01T19:03:14Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Great OP Polycarp! It never fails to amaze me that few Republicans are interested in the election being as fair as humanly possible. Why is that? Hmmm… Yep. \*\*Shodan \*\* was overdue for a dopeslap. > [@](#): > > We didn’t revolt because we were too stunned. Dunno 'bout dat. A third of us were happy with the result, a third didn’t vote anyway, and most of the remaining third were able to rationalize that 4 years of “compassionate conservatism” and “restoring honor and dignity to the White House” wouldn’t be that bad. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/8 "2004-10-01T19:05:22Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > It never fails to amaze me that few Republicans are interested in the election being as fair as humanly possible. Since there are so few who want a fair election among the 55,000,000 or so Republicans registered nationwide, perhaps you could give the decent ones some recognition by naming them here. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/9 "2004-10-01T19:44:02Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Since there are so few who want a fair election among the 55,000,000 or so Republicans registered nationwide, perhaps you could give the decent ones some recognition by naming them here. Sigh, I can’t. As far as I can see, Republicans have either been scornful, dismissive, or oblivious to any voting problem concerns, or they know what’s going on, but have kept silent either out of gleeful admiration or embarrassed shame. I said “few Republicans” because it would be folly to say “no Republicans.” I’m sure there have been some Republicans who are interested in a totally fair election, but I just don’t know who they are. If you come across any, please let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/10 "2004-10-01T19:48:07Z")
Gosh, the only one I know of is my sister. She must be the only one. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/11 "2004-10-01T19:49:03Z")
“If Fascism comes to America, it would be on a program of Americanism.’” –Huey Long Judging by the conduct of Dubya and his droogs, who have been busy lately giving Lady Liberty a bit of the old in-out/in-out, looks like the Kingfish was a prophet ahead of his time. To be fair to **Shodan** , he’s certainly partisan, but I don’t see any evidence in this thread that he opposes fair and free elections. Still, I’m certain that the only reason that the GOP hasn’t suspended elections is that they haven’t found a plausible pretext to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/12 "2004-10-01T19:52:05Z")
Oh, horseshit. > [@Polycarp](#): > > If any person here thinks that Jimmy Carter’s past foibles are sufficient reason not to have a concern about whether fair and reliable elections can be held in Florida in 33 days – then he may be being a good Republican (or Democrat), but he’s being a damn poor American. This is morally no different from “you’re with us, or you’re with the terrorists”. If you object to having it said to you, don’t say it to me. > [@Polycarp](#): > > **Shodan** decided to join the crowd in casting aspersions on President Carter, including in particular his having mentioned asking his daughter what her greatest concern was. Wrong. I did not raise the issue of Carter being advised by his pre-teen daughter. Someone else did, and then another Doper misrepresented the nature of the exchange, and I corrected it. You don’t like it? Tough shit - take it up with Carter. > [@Polycarp](#): > > Look, asshole. I am interested in **fair and honest** elections, which choose the man preferred by a majority of voters (given how our system works, electoral college with winner-takes-all in most states, and all the other trimmings) for the job. Congratulations. The issue is not what you are interested in, but what Carter is interested in. He is an idiot on most subjects, and therefore his ideas of what is vital and what is not is a matter of no importance to me. You have a different idea about Carter? Good for you. I don’t. You want to get bent out of shape because I could not give a rat’s fetid and purulent ass what the hell that dolt thinks? Knock yourself out. > [@Polycarp](#): > > I am not interested in getting into whether or not one agrees with a past President, into making accusations about his abilities or lack of them, nor suggesting that one must agree with him to be a good American. Then don’t post suggesting it, and don’t start Pit threads because I have a different opinion than you. > [@Polycarp](#): > > Quite bluntly, if your opinion of the issue raised in that thread is Mr. Carter’s credibility, then you have lost all capacity for rational discourse. How asinine. I am not allowed to question the assertions of the worst President of the last twenty years? Horse shit. > [@Polycarp](#): > > Get off the fucking high horse, and pay attention to the issue. Allow me to decline the honor of having “the issue” defined for me. Carter is a dolt. I may have mentioned that, but it bears repeating. He is also a partisan dolt, as evidenced by his accusations of treason against Zell Miller for supporting Bush. And therefore my estimates of his motives are much different from your apparent desire that I simply accept that whatever he says is important. It isn’t. Because he is, as I mentioned, a dolt. > [@Polycarp](#): > > My statement was very explicit: Don’t use Mr. Carter’s past mistakes to deflect attention from the issue he raises, which is a valid one. Fuck what your statement was. Fuck your apparent unwillingness to accept that someone might disagree. Fuck your high dudgeon at the notion that I might not genuflect at the altar of Carter. Who the hell do you think you are, telling me what to think? Fuck off. **The reason he is worried is that the Democrats lost the state of Florida in 2000.** It’s not because he is high-minded and noble and more insightful than ordinary mortals. It’s because Gore lost. And Carter is still seething over it. Cripes, you people are idiots. The shit you people pitch about Bush, and the non-stop whining about everything he has ever done since conception, and then the instant anyone questions the need to take every fucking accusation some Democratic failure at face value - you run off to the Pit and start howling because someone dares to disagree. Get over yourself. It’s a fucking election. And both sides are jockeying for position. And some of that consists of selective outrage in some cases and grabbing for every advantage you can in others. And if you think trying to paper over partisan sour grapes with noble rhetoric is confined only to one side of the aisle, you are a bigger moron than Carter. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/13 "2004-10-01T19:55:54Z")
Why are you so scared of an accurate count, **Shodan**? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/14 "2004-10-01T19:59:05Z")
> [@](#): > > The reason he is worried is that the Democrats lost the state of Florida in 2000. No, the Democrats **won** Florida, but the Supreme Court stopped the recount to keep Dubya from losing. Itr was a coup, and if the Dems had pulled the same thing, the GOP would have made sure to launch an investigation that would have made Whitewater look like a pillow fight. **Shodan** , are you afraind of an honest election? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/15 "2004-10-01T20:02:24Z")
Why are you guys afraid of saying something without claiming that someone is afraid of something? Are you afraid of the consequences? I fear that your little ‘are you afraid of _X_’ quips are frightfully stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/16 "2004-10-01T20:03:39Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > **Shodan** , are you afraind of an honest election? This is where we probably get to the part where he refuses to take a clear stand on the issue in favor of rabid partisan attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/17 "2004-10-01T20:05:28Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Why are you guys afraid of saying something without claiming that someone is afraid of something? Are you afraid of the consequences? I fear that your little ‘are you afraid of _X_’ quips are frightfully stupid. Why are you afraid of people saying others are afraid of saying their afraid of something, **Brutus**? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/18 "2004-10-01T20:06:09Z")
**Brutus** , your calling anyone stupid is like a fish calling anything else wet. And if Bush loses in November, I will be very surprised if you and your cohorts accept the results maturely. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/19 "2004-10-01T20:07:33Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Why are you guys afraid of saying something without claiming that someone is afraid of something? Are you afraid of the consequences? I fear that your little ‘are you afraid of _X_’ quips are frightfully stupid. Everytime someone expresses a concern about wanting an accurate vote count, **Shodan** accuses them of being liberal whiners. He refuses to acknowledge documented problems and refuses to acknowledge any need for accurate elections. If he consistently attacks anyone who wants a fair election, what else are we supposed to think but that he _doesn’t_ want a fair election? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/20 "2004-10-01T20:09:18Z")
The Bush partisans seem testy today. I guess they’re still smarting from watching their boy get his lunch eaten last night. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072.md?page=2)