# Shodan, Come, Let Us Reason Together **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 1, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072 "2004-10-01T17:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/21 "2004-10-01T20:10:00Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Why are you afraid of people saying others are afraid of saying their afraid of something, **Brutus**? :dubious: I fear that your intense anti-Americanism and fear of not marching lock-step behind your fellow Lefties has scared you into this frighteningly silly comment about my post regarding the abuse of ‘afraid’. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/22 "2004-10-01T20:10:52Z")
Carter Carter Carter Carter Blah Blah Blah Blah Carter Carter Carter Carter Blah Blah Blah Blah Get Over 2000 Get Over 2000 Blah Blah Blah. Meanwhile, people who care about fair elections, including Liberal’s sister, will continue to be deeply concerned about our democratic right to vote and have those votes be counted. ---
**Author:** ![Legolamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@Legolamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Legolamb)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/23 "2004-10-01T20:13:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How asinine. I am not allowed to question the assertions of the worst President of the last twenty years? You’ve never tried. In fact you’re a shill for him. Oh wait, you were talking about _Carter_… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/24 "2004-10-01T20:17:27Z")
FYI to **Shodan** , Carter has not been President since 1981. That’s _more_ than 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/25 "2004-10-01T20:18:16Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > I fear that your intense anti-Americanism and fear of not marching lock-step behind your fellow Lefties has scared you into this frighteningly silly comment about my post regarding the abuse of ‘afraid’. Is **Metacom** anti-American? Do you have a cite to back that up? And is he necessarily a Lefti? I’m pro-American, pro-military, detest lefties, yet I also oppose Bush. I don’t jhate him, he’s probably a likeable guy, but he is a woefully bad president. As CEO of the US, he stinks. He’s bad on security, bad on the economy, he has mismanaged the war, and he’s generally incompetent. If McCain were running against Kerry, I’d vote for McCain, but that’s not an option. Bush has demonstrated that he is a failed leader, so we need to replace him. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/26 "2004-10-01T20:19:28Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > …If he consistently attacks anyone who wants a fair election… Hardly the case, I fear. I am afraid that you misinterpret his (IMO, justified) attacks against rabid Leftist partisans, who themselves are using scare-tactics _and_ Jimmy Carter. My great fear, though, is that some of you are abusing the word ‘afraid’. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/27 "2004-10-01T20:20:38Z")
Hey, **Brutus** , Why are you so shit scared of a fair election? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/28 "2004-10-01T20:21:43Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > No, the Democrats **won** Florida, but the Supreme Court stopped the recount to keep Dubya from losing. WRONG. **WRONG.** WRONG. GWB won Florida. The Supreme Court had nothing to do with it. GET OVER IT, fergawdsakes! Here, if you don’t believe me, try CNN. Even they acknowledge it. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (CNN) – A comprehensive study of the 2000 presidential election in Florida suggests that if the U.S. Supreme Court had allowed a statewide vote recount to proceed, Republican candidate George W. Bush would still have been elected president. > > The National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago conducted the six-month study for a consortium of eight news media companies, including CNN. > [http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html](http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/29 "2004-10-01T20:25:09Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Hey, **Brutus** , > > Why are you so shit scared of a fair election? 😛 Because I don’t a President Nader! ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/30 "2004-10-01T20:26:10Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Hey, **Brutus** , > > Why are you so shit scared of a fair election? 😛 Errrrr, Because I don’t _want_ a President Nader! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/31 "2004-10-01T20:30:02Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Errrrr, > > Because I don’t _want_ a President Nader! Pay attention **Brutus** , **Diogenes** said fair election, not _ **fairy** _ election!! :wally ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/32 "2004-10-01T20:30:07Z")
I suggest you read your own cite beyond the first paragraph. > [@](#): > > The NORC team of coders were able to examine about 99 percent of them, but county officials were unable to deliver as many as 2,200 problem ballots to NORC investigators. In addition, the uncertainties of human judgment, combined with some counties’ inability to produce the same undervotes and overvotes that they saw last year, create a margin of error that makes the study instructive but not definitive in its findings. Furthermore, he study examines scenarios in which Gore would have won, using the Palm Beach county standard, for example. But either way, the Supreme Court still intervened illegally. If the recount had gone on and Bush had won fairly, the result would have been a lot more palatable. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/33 "2004-10-01T20:31:57Z")
I suggest you read your own cite beyond the first paragraph. > [@](#): > > The NORC team of coders were able to examine about 99 percent of them, but county officials were unable to deliver as many as 2,200 problem ballots to NORC investigators. In addition, the uncertainties of human judgment, combined with some counties’ inability to produce the same undervotes and overvotes that they saw last year, create a margin of error that makes the study instructive but not definitive in its findings. Furthermore, he study examines scenarios in which Gore would have won, using the Palm Beach county standard, for example. But either way, the Supreme Court still intervened illegally. If the recount had gone on and Bush had won fairly, the result would have been a lot more palatable.It also would have helped if the count had not been run by rabidly partisan Bush supporters, if black voters had not been unfairly and dishonestly disenfranchised, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/34 "2004-10-01T20:37:04Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > I fear that your intense anti-Americanism and fear of not marching lock-step behind your fellow Lefties has scared you into this frighteningly silly comment about my post regarding the abuse of ‘afraid’. Looks like I should have added a “;)” after a few blank lines. I thought it would be obviously silly, but apparently it was merely frighteningly so. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/35 "2004-10-01T20:38:38Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Why are you so scared of an accurate count, **Shodan**? Shouldn’t it be why do you _hate_ an honest count? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/36 "2004-10-01T20:40:07Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Looks like I should have added a “;)” after a few blank lines. I thought it would be obviously silly, but apparently it was merely frighteningly so. 😃 I fear that whooshes and scare-tactic are frighteningly common in this frightful thread! ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/37 "2004-10-01T20:45:39Z")
To be honest, I didn’t consider Shodan’s posts in that thread to be so out-of-line on the renormalized Shodan scale for post absurdity / lack of reason. If the average absurdity of a Shodan post is set equal to 1 (“1 Shodan”), I would say his posts in that thread are around 1…or at least of that order. On, the other hand, I would measure the absurdity of posts from the average poster in milli-Shodans or micro-Shodans. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/38 "2004-10-01T20:49:01Z")
Bottom fucking line on several assertions: George W. Bush won the Florida vote in 2000. We know this because the tallying was stopped with him ahead, courtesy of a decision in the U.S. Supreme Court. Whoever might have come out on top in a complete, accurate tally is immaterial. But there were certainly enough problems associated with that state’s tally to warrant concern that it not be repeated. Does any Republican posting to this thread want to get off his gripes about “leftist whining” and “Carter was blahblahblah” long enough to say, “Yes, I want to see a fair and honest count made of the votes in Florida in 2004.”? If so, I’d appreciate his saying so, here and now. The GD thread in question had President Carter asserting that the recommendations of the commission he and President Ford had served on had not been adequately implemented. The results were that it turned into character assassination of President Carter, rather than a discussion of the issue raised in the OP. And that is what I’m pissed about. If **Shodan** wants to think that Carter is objectively worse than Bush II, he’s privileged to do so. If he wants to rant and rave about the man having asked his daughter what she was concerned about, he’s privileged to do so. But not in a thread about a serious problem alleged to be present in the system that is supposed to be choosing our President for the next four years. And it’s clear that he, and **Brutus** , and a few others, are so determined to believe that anything short of blind allegiance to God’s Anointed, George W. Bush, is hating the man. Personally, I think he’s no better and no worse than many another demagogic politician to come down the pike, on both sides of the political fence, in the last 50 years. I don’t support him; I loathe some of his positions. But what I **demand** is that the American tradition of honest elections be continued – and any asshole who decides that the faults of the messenger are more important than the message he bears, and attempts to deflect discussion from the message to the messenger, deserves contempt. Because the message is important. Even if Carter and Ford are wrong, and everything’s hunky-dory as regards Florida election practices (which **Equipoise** ’s post suggests may not be the case), is it not worthwhile to **find out** that that’s the case? > [@Shodan](#): > > Who the hell do you think you are, telling me what to think? Fuck off. The OP of that GD thread was what set the issue to be debated, not me and not you. Maybe Carter’s reason for raising this **is** that he’s a Democrat, and the Democrats lost Florida in 2000 – I’m inclined to think otherwise, but that’s something we can agree to disagree on. But **my** issue, and why I’m sufficiently pissed to take this to the Pit, is that I believe in a Republic whose leaders are selected by democratic practices. And I want to see those practices being fair and honest, not subject to the potential for fraud. If you happen to agree with that POV, you might say so. If you think it sufficient to attack me, Democrats generally, Jimmy Carter, or whatever, you’ll have made it clear that your interest is not in having Mr. Bush re-elected fairly, in an honest election, but in getting him re-elected by whatever means it takes. And Pitting will be too good for you at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/39 "2004-10-01T20:54:33Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > …And it’s clear that he, and **Brutus** , and a few others, are so determined to believe that anything short of blind allegiance to God’s Anointed, George W. Bush, is hating the man… Ya. There is no irrational and petty hatred of GW around here, just reasoned and well-supported rational opposition. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072/40 "2004-10-01T20:56:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is morally no different from “you’re with us, or you’re with the terrorists”. If you object to having it said to you, don’t say it to me. You’re such a fucking, goddam tool. It’s not the same thing at all. He’s not saying if you disagree with Carter’s recommendations, you don’t care about fair elections, so long as you can factually refute Carter’s assessment and show why you think the elections might be fair… You can’t. So you just stooped to character smears on Carter and didn’t address one single fucking point about the election problems that may crop up in Florida, again. Typical Bush supporter. Idiot. All you do is dismiss the concerns with of your hand, simply because they’ll probably benefit your guy. That’s why we’re saying that you dont’ give a fuck about fair elections, so long as your guy wins. Because you don’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-come-let-us-reason-together/267072.md?page=3)