# Shodan, HurricaneDitka, and George Zimmerman: Three Racist Peas in a Racist Pod **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 6, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691 "2018-12-06T17:46:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691/241 "2020-02-21T01:21:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > At the very least, this post is entirely sympathetic with those who argue that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence – and I think it’s also clearly expressing that he explicitly agrees with them. Yeah no, I don’t see how you get that. Here’s my thought process as I read the thread: [ul][li]nitpickery over whether “racist” or “racial” is an appropriate descriptor for a (hypothetical) factual finding of racial inferiority[/li][li]iiandyiiii complains that some people think it is OK to make racist claims if they phrase it nicely and have some numbers to show (slight strawman)[/li][li]Shodan clarifies, some people think it is OK to make [DEL]true[/DEL] statements if the evidence [DEL]warrants it[/DEL] supports those statements; he also implies that iiandyiiii is against truth[/li][li]iiandyiiii agrees and asks for evidence behind racist claims being discussed (forgetting that the hypothetical included racial inferiority as an undisputable fact)[/li][li]Shodan says iiandyiiii isn’t interested in evidence and quits the thread[/ul][/li] > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As to my feelings, no, it’s not okay, and never okay, to say that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence. “Black people” is not a biologically valid grouping; “dumber” (and possibly even intelligence) are not clearly defined and clearly measurable scientific characteristics; and thus this is no more valid a scientific question than “are Jews inherently dishonest and greedy” or “are white people inherently evil”. Maybe at some point we’ll actually have a full understanding (and a clear definition!) of human intelligence, and maybe at some point we’ll fully understand all the genetics and heritable characteristics behind it. But we’re not even close to any of that. I don’t give the benefit of the doubt to those who insist on repeating pseudoscientific nonsense from the 19th century, no matter how they dress this hateful nonsense up. No offense to you, but it seems that you go beyond refusing to entertain the logical possibility of racial theories of intelligence; you ascribe racist motive to those who would entertain evidence presented in support of such theories. I know what you wrote - you wrote that you don’t give the benefit of the doubt to those who repeat nonsense from the 19th century. That is fine and it is your prerogative, but inapplicable here. The discussion involved a hypothetical: if 19th century nonsense was actually fact, would it still be racist? And instead of you addressing the hypothetical, I see you - still! - ascribing bad faith to those who would entertain the possibility that racist claims are true in their quest to define racism. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691/242 "2020-02-21T02:10:19Z")
[quote=“Max\_S, post:241, topic:825691”] Yeah no, I don’t see how you get that. Here’s my thought process as I read the thread: [ul][li]nitpickery over whether “racist” or “racial” is an appropriate descriptor for a (hypothetical) factual finding of racial inferiority[/li][li]iiandyiiii complains that some people think it is OK to make racist claims if they phrase it nicely and have some numbers to show (slight strawman)[/li][li]Shodan clarifies, some people think it is OK to make [DEL]true[/DEL] statements if the evidence [DEL]warrants it[/DEL] supports those statements; he also implies that iiandyiiii is against truth[/li][li]iiandyiiii agrees and asks for evidence behind racist claims being discussed (forgetting that the hypothetical included racial inferiority as an undisputable fact)[/li][li]Shodan says iiandyiiii isn’t interested in evidence and quits the thread[/ul][/li][/quote] Not sure why you lined through “true” for **Shodan** ’s statement – we were talking about “blacks are dumber” statements, and he labeled these as “true statements”. That’s where I “get that” – seems crystal clear to me. > [@](#): > > No offense to you, but it seems that you go beyond refusing to entertain the logical possibility of racial theories of intelligence; you ascribe racist motive to those who would entertain evidence presented in support of such theories. I know what you wrote - you wrote that you don’t give the benefit of the doubt to those who repeat nonsense from the 19th century. That is fine and it is your prerogative, but inapplicable here. The discussion involved a hypothetical: if 19th century nonsense was actually fact, would it still be racist? And instead of you addressing the hypothetical, I see you - still! - ascribing bad faith to those who would entertain the possibility that racist claims are true in their quest to define racism. > > ~Max This is like asking “if the Nazis were right about the Jews, was it okay to kill them all?” My brain is literally unable to process this. Races aren’t and can’t be inferior – this is beyond the realm of possibility. It’s not how the world works. And it’s as horrifying as asking about whether it’d be okay to molest children if they all wanted it. I can’t process it, and the idea of processing it is horrifying. This (assumptions/hypotheses of racial inferiority) is the worst stuff in humanity and human history, and entertaining it as reasonable discussion is disgustingly immoral – about the worst kind of thing that can be discussed. Yes, I do ascribe bad faith to those that entertain the possibility that racist claims might be true. There’s no more possibility of good faith in this than in entertaining the possibility that these kids are just horny little monkeys who are asking to be molested. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691/243 "2020-02-21T06:55:49Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > you ascribe racist motive to those who would entertain evidence presented in support of such theories. I don’t know about **iiandyiiii** , but I know I do. I also assign racist motives to those who use the cover of “just trying to have pure hypothetical debates” when those “pure hypothetical” debates always seem to involve them taking the side of known deplorables. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691/244 "2020-02-21T08:35:05Z")
There’s a difference between acting as the devil’s advocate and the devil having you on retainer. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691/245 "2020-02-23T23:53:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not sure why you lined through “true” for **Shodan** ’s statement – we were talking about “blacks are dumber” statements, and he labeled these as “true statements”. That’s where I “get that” – seems crystal clear to me. I struck the word “true” because it was superfluous. 1) A statement is true because it is supported by evidence; 2) it was (hypothetically) given that evidence supported a racial theory of intelligence whereby blacks are less intelligent than asians; therefore, 3) the statement “blacks are less intelligent than asians” is (hypothetically) true. **Shodan** wasn’t so careful to remind you that statement 2 was written into the hypothetical. Or maybe **Shodan** really believes there is evidence that blacks are less intelligent than asians. It’s hard to say since he quit the thread when you called him out the first time. I think it is clear from his posts in this thread that he spent at least a few minutes wondering why African Americans, on average, have low test scores in school. Personally, I think it is a problem of _character_, and character is developed by _culture_, and I think certain prevalent strains of “black culture” don’t put an emphasis on education. I use scare quotes around “black culture” because it is a nebulous term to begin with, and bum culture (“school doesn’t matter”) transcends racial lines. It just happens to be that in my experience African American slang, music, identification with stereotypes, etc. was disproportionately popular among lower performing students, who were disproportionately black, who would point to their culture when asked why they don’t care about school: my parents don’t care about my grades, they just want me away from gangs/drugs/jail; I don’t feel smart/confident or I don’t care; my idols don’t care about school, and the one that did turned out to be a horrible person (Bill Cosby); even if I did care about school, I wouldn’t get anywhere because I can’t afford college; even if I could afford college, I wouldn’t get in because of discrimination; even if I did get through college, I wouldn’t get hired/payed well because of discrimination; even if I got through all of that, I would probably end up getting shot by some cop for no reason at all. I really don’t care whether my opinion on low African American test scores constitutes racism or classism or neither, because I don’t approach the question on whether my opinion is moral based on whether > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is like asking “if the Nazis were right about the Jews, was it okay to kill them all?” My brain is literally unable to process this. Races aren’t and can’t be inferior – this is beyond the realm of possibility. It’s not how the world works. And it’s as horrifying as asking about whether it’d be okay to molest children if they all wanted it. I can’t process it, and the idea of processing it is horrifying. Whereas I have no issue compartmentalizing my thoughts to address an abstract question. If the Nazis were (morally) “right about the Jews”, which they weren’t, it does not necessarily follow that _every_ Jew should die. It would depend on what specifically they were right about. For me, racism is wrong because it is an unjustified and harmful overgeneralization - it is generally wrong to discriminate against somebody on the basis of involuntary affiliation such as race; because the affiliation is involuntary, the person has done nothing to deserve discrimination; therefore, except the rare case where race is relevant, racism is both unjustified and harmful and therefore wrong. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This (assumptions/hypotheses of racial inferiority) is the worst stuff in humanity and human history, and entertaining it as reasonable discussion is disgustingly immoral – about the worst kind of thing that can be discussed. Yes, I do ascribe bad faith to those that entertain the possibility that racist claims might be true. There’s no more possibility of good faith in this than in entertaining the possibility that these kids are just horny little monkeys who are asking to be molested. This line of hypotheticals, “what if blacks really are dumber” or “what if Nazis were right about Jews?” can be used as a lead-in to apartheid or Nazi sympathism, I will grant that. It can be used to develop the above definition or morality of racism. Since you can call out the sympathism when it surfaces, I don’t see the need to ascribe bad faith based solely on a want to discuss the morality of racism. I’m not above defending Nazis in hypotheticals, by the way. It’s happened before on these forums. Your example with child molestation isn’t beyond the pale, especially if we were talking about say statutory rape with respect to teenagers. Even though I am against Nazis and in favor of statutory rape laws, I think it’s a good thing to help someone else understand my thinking, and for me to understand theirs. I have no issue contemplating these questions in good faith, although at your suggestion I can acknowledge that… perhaps you do. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691/246 "2020-02-24T00:16:46Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I struck the word “true” because it was superfluous. 1) A statement is true because it is supported by evidence; 2) it was (hypothetically) given that evidence supported a racial theory of intelligence whereby blacks are less intelligent than asians; therefore, 3) the statement “blacks are less intelligent than asians” is (hypothetically) true. > > **Shodan** wasn’t so careful to remind you that statement 2 was written into the hypothetical. Or maybe **Shodan** really believes there is evidence that blacks are less intelligent than asians. It’s hard to say since he quit the thread when you called him out the first time. I think it is clear from his posts in this thread that he spent at least a few minutes wondering why African Americans, on average, have low test scores in school. > > Personally, I think it is a problem of _character_, and character is developed by _culture_, and I think certain prevalent strains of “black culture” don’t put an emphasis on education. I use scare quotes around “black culture” because it is a nebulous term to begin with, and bum culture (“school doesn’t matter”) transcends racial lines. It just happens to be that in my experience African American slang, music, identification with stereotypes, etc. was disproportionately popular among lower performing students, who were disproportionately black, who would point to their culture when asked why they don’t care about school: my parents don’t care about my grades, they just want me away from gangs/drugs/jail; I don’t feel smart/confident or I don’t care; my idols don’t care about school, and the one that did turned out to be a horrible person (Bill Cosby); even if I did care about school, I wouldn’t get anywhere because I can’t afford college; even if I could afford college, I wouldn’t get in because of discrimination; even if I did get through college, I wouldn’t get hired/payed well because of discrimination; even if I got through all of that, I would probably end up getting shot by some cop for no reason at all. > > I really don’t care whether my opinion on low African American test scores constitutes racism or classism or neither, because I don’t approach the question on whether my opinion is moral based on whether > > Whereas I have no issue compartmentalizing my thoughts to address an abstract question. If the Nazis were (morally) “right about the Jews”, which they weren’t, it does not necessarily follow that _every_ Jew should die. It would depend on what specifically they were right about. > > For me, racism is wrong because it is an unjustified and harmful overgeneralization - it is generally wrong to discriminate against somebody on the basis of involuntary affiliation such as race; because the affiliation is involuntary, the person has done nothing to deserve discrimination; therefore, except the rare case where race is relevant, racism is both unjustified and harmful and therefore wrong. > > This line of hypotheticals, “what if blacks really are dumber” or “what if Nazis were right about Jews?” can be used as a lead-in to apartheid or Nazi sympathism, I will grant that. It can be used to develop the above definition or morality of racism. Since you can call out the sympathism when it surfaces, I don’t see the need to ascribe bad faith based solely on a want to discuss the morality of racism. > > I’m not above defending Nazis in hypotheticals, by the way. It’s happened before on these forums. Your example with child molestation isn’t beyond the pale, especially if we were talking about say statutory rape with respect to teenagers. Even though I am against Nazis and in favor of statutory rape laws, I think it’s a good thing to help someone else understand my thinking, and for me to understand theirs. I have no issue contemplating these questions in good faith, although at your suggestion I can acknowledge that… perhaps you do. > > ~Max I go into my beliefs and understanding regarding racial test score disparities in posts 235 and 236. I think we have some very different understandings of racism and related issues. I think it’s neither possible nor desirable to approach these issues dispassionately, without taking morality and even history into account. I don’t think bad faith is the only possibility for bringing up these kinds of hypotheticals, but considering morality and history, I find it hard to imagine any explanation aside from either bad faith or ignorance of this history and morality. As far as Shodan, I can’t read his mind, only his posts. While that old post is concerning to me, the most recent one above is quite thoughtful (aside from the snarking insults) and interesting, even as I disagree with much of it, and I wish he’d put that kind of effort into all his posts on this kind of topic, rather than the lazy one liners that reek (to me, anyway) of contempt and worse. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691/247 "2020-02-24T00:20:47Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691/248 "2020-02-25T16:29:32Z")
Sad that **Shodan** hasn’t followed up on his interesting post #233 (and my replies). I still have hope for you, **Shodan**! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691/249 "2020-02-25T16:59:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Several times, over the years, in various discussions about race, racism, and intelligence, I had asked **Shodan** directly whether he thought black people were inherently inferior, on average, in intelligence. He always refused to answer, and I suspected this was because he thought the answer was “yes” but was afraid to say so. > > Looking back at some old threads, I found one in which he does appear to answer the question as yes, quite clearly, in fact, though perhaps without realizing it (and indeed I may not have realized it at the time either!): [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16897769&postcount=136](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16897769&postcount=136) > > So, at least in 2013, **Shodan** appears to have believed that those spreading the “Blacks are dumber” gospel were making “true statements”. Based on more recent discussions we’ve had, I don’t recall any posts that would suggest he’s changed his views, but hopefully I’m incorrect on this. If you no longer believe that “blacks are dumber”, **Shodan** , I hope you’ll let us know! When I read this, I visualize John Oilver hitting his big “We Got Him!” button, to much the same effect as Oliver achieves when he does it. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > There’s a difference between acting as the devil’s advocate and the devil having you on retainer. So stealing that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691/250 "2020-02-25T17:05:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > When I read this, I visualize John Oilver hitting his big “We Got Him!” button, to much the same effect as Oliver achieves when he does it. Ha! I love the visual. I’m also a big fan of Oliver. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-hurricaneditka-and-george-zimmerman-three-racist-peas-in-a-racist-pod/825691.md?page=12)