# Shogun on FX **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, disney-hulu\ **Created:** [February 27, 2024, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188 "2024-02-27T21:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/61 "2024-03-20T20:29:32Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > But could @icon or @RickJay or someone else explain the business a while back where Toranaga had Blackthorne jump repeatedly off the side of the boat and then eventually wanted to race him? What was that all about? This is a combination of three scenes in the book; he teaches Toranaga (and a bunch of the others) how to dive. In another scene, Toranaga walks in on him doing a hornpipe - a sailor’s dance - and then and there demands to be taught how to do it. In a much later scene, Toranaga wants to swim out to see something, and challenges his guard to race him; the narrator notes that Toranaga means it when he wants to race and that a general once let him win and “that mistake cost the man everything.” (The guard wins.) The point of the scene is basically to show Toranaga is very clever, and also to show him growing to appreciate Blackthorne’s bringing some new knowledge and skills to the table. Toranaga has his own agenda, but he’s not a bigot; he sees value in anything and anyone, if it serves his interests. > [@Horatius](#): > > Hell, it was Toranaga who gave him the bird, so what exactly was he hunting for, if not to eat? He hunts for fun. And also for the sake of metaphor for the narrator. The book has him often comparing his falcons to his people. It is noted in the book that Toranaga has Christian samurai underneath him willing to eat meat and he usually just gives them whatever he catches. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/62 "2024-03-20T22:14:03Z")
Thanks. And also to @icon and @Horatius. ---
**Author:** ![LVBoPeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/858c86/32.png) [@LVBoPeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LVBoPeep)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/63 "2024-03-20T23:06:24Z")
We thought that was just his way of trying to get Blackthorne to get clean since he wouldn’t bathe lol. Can someone spoiler me the explanation of what happened to Mariko’s family? I re-watched when she explained it to Blackthorne but I didn’t really understand what happened. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/64 "2024-03-21T00:12:56Z")
From Wikipedia synopsis of ep. 5: > During dinner, Blackthorne and Buntaro engage in a sake drinking binge before Buntaro proves his archery skills while drunk and forces Mariko to tell Blackthorne about how her father, Lord Akechi Jinsai, murdered Lord Kuroda, the previous ruler of Japan before the _Taikō_, and was forced to execute his family before committing _seppuku_, and that she married Buntaro and was forced to live as atonement for her father’s crime. Each episode is summarized here, as it appears (not before): > **[Shōgun (2024 miniseries)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dgun_(2024_miniseries))** > > Shōgun is a Japanese-American historical drama television miniseries created by Rachel Kondo and Justin Marks. It is based on the 1975 novel of the same name by James Clavell, which was previously adapted into a 1980 miniseries. The series premiered with its first two episodes on February 27, 2024, on Hulu and FX, with new episodes of the 10-episode series then releasing weekly. > Shōgun follows "the collision of two ambitious men from different worlds and a mysterious woman samurai; John Blackt... ---
**Author:** ![LVBoPeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/858c86/32.png) [@LVBoPeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LVBoPeep)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/65 "2024-03-21T00:35:53Z")
Ok, thank you! I got confused when they mentioned the Taiko… ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/66 "2024-03-21T01:47:54Z")
I had gotten that much but it was unclear to me if she was ashamed of her father’s act or felt that he had acted in the best interest of the nation. Clearly she feels living while the rest of her family died was torture. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/67 "2024-03-21T02:01:48Z")
[This is the historic figure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akechi_Mitsuhide) and this is the [incident that lead to her loss of status](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honn%C5%8D-ji_Incident). ---
**Author:** ![icon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@icon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/icon)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/68 "2024-03-21T10:37:03Z")
In the book it is also mentioned that she was exiled by her husband for a long period of time in order to spare her from seppuku something that is also part of the he real life counterpart. This is part of what makes her angry with him. Everyone in the community she lives in knows that she is the daughter of a traitor even if she does now belong to a respected family by marriage. `//i\\` ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/69 "2024-03-21T16:50:18Z")
[Here’s a lot of info about hanging birds](https://honest-food.net/on-hanging-pheasants-2/). It was popular in a certain era of Europe, but I don’t think flies would’ve been a selling point. It’s not meant to rot. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/70 "2024-03-21T20:01:15Z")
I didn’t read the book, what was the dish “Anjin” was trying to make with that rotting bird? He mentions rabbit stew that smells like death and doesn’t have sherry, but the bird was still intact at that point. ---
**Author:** ![icon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@icon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/icon)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/71 "2024-03-21T20:10:15Z")
No specific dish is mentioned. As stated above, hanging a bird to dry it out was a thing (and still is) before you prepare it for anything. It could have been a stew, it could have been to fry it, or anything else. It would be like waiting for a fruit to get to a certain point before you use it for a dish, though in this case, he waited a little bit too long I think 😜 `//i\\` ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/72 "2024-03-21T20:20:02Z")
Right, but he makes it clear he knows full well it will reek and that it’s good for the dish. I can’t find any recipe that calls for a game bird to be rotten. Blackthorne acted like this meal was an Englishman’s Birthright, a call of home. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/73 "2024-03-21T20:46:29Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > I’ve read the book three times, the last time was Kindle. I have also read the book several times. The government used to send me places on detail, and there was no way I could pack a months worth of books. So I hit up a used bookstore to by cheap books that I know were common and a good-re-read. Shogun, and All Creatures Great and Small were two standbyes. Oddly, I have tried several other books by Clavell, and found them lacking. Toranaga is the Good guy to Anjin/Blackthorne. > [@RickJay](#): > > They would have had nothing at all to learn from an English sailor on that point, though it is absolutely true that there would have remained a strong cultural disdain for them, especially for use against other samurai. Were the muskets in the Dutch ship flintlocks instead of matchlocks? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/74 "2024-03-21T21:24:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Oddly, I have tried several other books by Clavell, and found them lacking. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/75 "2024-03-21T21:30:22Z")
I’ve read all of them and agree that _Shogun_ is the best by far. I thought “Tai-Pan” was pretty good, but also found the rest lacking. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/76 "2024-03-21T22:26:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Were the muskets in the Dutch ship flintlocks instead of matchlocks? The pistols Blackthorne carried were snaplocks, I think - an early form of flintlock - but muskets from 1600 would have been matchlocks. It would be another 50 years at least before flintlock muskets became common. ---
**Author:** ![icon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@icon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/icon)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/77 "2024-03-21T22:28:28Z")
I also have read all the Clavell books in the Asia series including Whirlwind which it took me a while to find and acquire. King rat stands out though and not just because it was his first novel but because it is basically about his experiences as a prisoner of war during WWII. I do agree that Tai-Pan, which I believe is the shortest of the whole series, is likely the most entertaining after Shogūn, though I liked Noble House as well. `//i\\` ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/78 "2024-03-22T01:34:32Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > I thought “Tai-Pan” was pretty good, but also found the rest lacking. It was readable, certainly, but not re-readable if you know what I mean. > [@icon](#): > > King rat stands out though and not just because it was his first novel but because it is basically about his experiences as a prisoner of war during WWII. Same here. But very grim. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/79 "2024-03-23T21:43:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The special effects on the earthquake were incredibly good. About that scene… It’s been decades since I read the book. But what I remember is that immediately after the terror of the earthquake, Toranaga (or possibly another character) stood up, danced and laughed joyously because they were going to live. And it was from this constant threat of death from earthquakes and other dangers that they derived such deep enjoyment of life. I think this was a moment in which Blackthorne, and we the reader, came to some understanding of the Japanese ethos. At least, that’s what I carry from it these many years later. The scene in the latest episode didn’t seem to go that way in the end. Edit: As for Clavell as an author, I’ve liked just about everything of his that I’ve read. And I’ll be forever grateful for his screenplay of The Great Escape. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2024, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188/80 "2024-03-24T02:47:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > > > I thought “Tai-Pan” was pretty good, but also found the rest lacking. > > It was readable, certainly, but not re-readable if you know what I mean. I know exactly what you mean, and agree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shogun-on-fx/998188.md?page=5)