# Shooting a Canadian from America
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [July 20, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689 "2011-07-20T07:46:40Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/1 "2011-07-20T07:46:40Z")
An American, in the USA, pulls the trigger of a firearm (of his choice) in the USA. Unfortunately for some Canuck the gun is aimed across the international border and Mr. Hockey fan is dead, Dead, **DEAD!**
What happens?
How difficult is it for Canadian authorities to get the perp to be turned over to them?
This question is also vise-versa.
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/2 "2011-07-20T08:09:54Z")
Interesting question. It’s possible no extradition would be necessary. The act of murder (pulling the trigger) took place on American soil, even though the body fell dead on Canadian soil. Perhaps the shooter would face charges in America because of this.
The other was round? Many countries, including Canada I believe, will not extradite one of their citizens who would be facing a possible death penalty in the country that wants them. So I suppose this question relies not only on the nature of the crime, but on what state the victim was in. Wisconsin doesn’t have a death penalty, but New York does if _Law & Order_ can be believed.
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### Author:  [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/3 "2011-07-20T08:57:31Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> The other was round? Many countries, including Canada I believe, will not extradite one of their citizens who would be facing a possible death penalty in the country that wants them. So I suppose this question relies not only on the nature of the crime, but on what state the victim was in. Wisconsin doesn’t have a death penalty, but New York does if _Law & Order_ can be believed.
In reality this is never an issue, or at least not that I have heard of. There have been numerous cases of Extradition from Europe, Australia etc. where the accused faced a possible death penalty. All that happens is that the detaining country demands that the death penalty removed from the possible outcomes, and the US prosecutors agree.
I doubt very much if Canada would be any different in that regard.
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### Author:  [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/4 "2011-07-20T09:02:19Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> The other was round? Many countries, including Canada I believe, will not extradite one of their citizens who would be facing a possible death penalty in the country that wants them. So I suppose this question relies not only on the nature of the crime, but on what state the victim was in. Wisconsin doesn’t have a death penalty, but New York does if _Law & Order_ can be believed.
Canada will (and routinely does) extradite someone if the state makes assurances they won’t seek the death penalty. Also, New York does have the death penalty on the books, but hasn’t executed anyone since 1976 and the state supreme court has ruled it unconstitutional.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/5 "2011-07-20T09:18:26Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> The other was round? Many countries, including Canada I believe, will not extradite one of their citizens who would be facing a possible death penalty in the country that wants them.
Nitpick: this has nothing to do with citizenship. Generally, the countries concerned won’t extradite anybody who would face the death penalty.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/6 "2011-07-20T09:26:52Z")
> [@Blake](#):
>
> In reality this is never an issue, or at least not that I have heard of. There have been numerous cases of Extradition from Europe, Australia etc. where the accused faced a possible death penalty. All that happens is that the detaining country demands that the death penalty removed from the possible outcomes, and the US prosecutors agree.
>
> I doubt very much if Canada would be any different in that regard.
Sometimes the case is bad enough that someone can go from Canada to an American death row, i.e. Charles Ng.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/7 "2011-07-20T09:39:42Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> Sometimes the case is bad enough that someone can go from Canada to an American death row, i.e. Charles Ng.
The Canadian position dates only from 2001. Ng was extradited some years earlier.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/8 "2011-07-20T10:28:32Z")
I don’t know what position you’re referring to, but there was a fair amount of resistance at the time to the idea of extraditing Ng to a likely death sentence in California. I recall a _Fifth Estate_ episode discussing the case and one person commenting that the Americans were prepared to play a game of chicken - namely dropping the extradition request entirely and seeing if the Canadians were willing to have Charles Ng free in Canada after serving a sentence for assaulting a Calgary security guard. Personally, I’m 100% okay with deporting Ng under _any_ conditions, including the possibility of being fed into a giant wood-chipper the instant he steps over the U.S. border, rather than have him loose in Canada.
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### Author:  [@medicated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medicated)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/9 "2011-07-20T10:48:33Z")
I don’t know what the government was worried about, though. It’s California. Ng stands a very good chance of old age killing him long before the state ever gets around to it.
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### Author:  [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/10 "2011-07-20T13:43:05Z")
As I understand it (from a detailed reading of [Cracked.com](http://www.cracked.com/article_18572_6-organizations-you-didnt-know-were-secretly-badass.html)), if Canada decided that they wanted the killer in custody, they’d just send the Mounties to go get him and haul his ass to Canada.
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### Author:  [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/11 "2011-07-20T14:45:33Z")
Canada actually regularly refuses to deport people if the death sentence may be used, particularly to china and many african nations. It is illegal for Canada to deport people who may receive the death penalty in other country’s. But I thought the death penalty usually only applied to first degree murder charges, not second or manslaughter. Or does it depend on the state?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/12 "2011-07-20T16:39:31Z")
> [@medicated](#):
>
> I don’t know what the government was worried about, though. It’s California. Ng stands a very good chance of old age killing him long before the state ever gets around to it.
Yeah… frankly, as an indigent criminal/illegal alien with no family support or job opportunities, Ng could easily have died in Calgary long ago, instead of still sitting in a California cell.
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### Author:  [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/13 "2011-07-20T17:00:10Z")
> [@keeganst94](#):
>
> Canada actually regularly refuses to deport people if the death sentence may be used, particularly to china and many african nations. It is illegal for Canada to deport people who may receive the death penalty in other country’s. But I thought the death penalty usually only applied to first degree murder charges, not second or manslaughter. Or does it depend on the state?
I’m not so sure this is still true. The Conservative government would probably extradite in cases of first degree murder now, with or without death penalty consideration.
[Ronald Allen Smith](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Allen_Smith)
> [@](#):
>
> In October/November 2007, however, the government of Canada announced that it would not seek clemency for Smith; whereas Canadian government policy had always been to seek clemency through diplomatic channels for Canadians sentenced to death in foreign countries, the government now announced a new policy: “that multiple murderers and mass murderers who are convicted in a democracy that adheres to the rule of law cannot necessarily count on a plea for clemency from the Canadian government and patriation back to this country.”[7] As of 2010, Smith remains on Montana’s death row.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/14 "2011-07-20T17:50:56Z")
There’s no extradition angle in the Smith case, though, or at least there’s no indication on the wiki page that he returned to Canada at any point after committing his capital crime (though his criminal record does show a 1983 escape, _after_ his death sentence, yikes). Had he returned to Canada then, during the last Trudeau administration, I can well imagine an extradition fight. Now, not so much.
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### Author:  [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/15 "2011-07-20T17:57:22Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> Interesting question. It’s possible no extradition would be necessary. The act of murder (pulling the trigger) took place on American soil, even though the body fell dead on Canadian soil. Perhaps the shooter would face charges in America because of this.
>
> The other was round? Many countries, including Canada I believe, will not extradite one of their citizens who would be facing a possible death penalty in the country that wants them. So I suppose this question relies not only on the nature of the crime, but on what state the victim was in. Wisconsin doesn’t have a death penalty, but New York does if _Law & Order_ can be believed.
That would be one hell of a shot from WI!
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### Author:  [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/16 "2011-07-20T18:05:48Z")
Step 1) Acquire large cannon
Step 2) Aim North
Step 3) Load Canadian
Step 4) FIRE!
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/17 "2011-07-20T18:06:04Z")
> [@brewha](#):
>
> That would be one hell of a shot from WI!
I dunno, does the 2nd Amendment cover artillery pieces?
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### Author:  [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/18 "2011-07-20T18:16:30Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> It’s possible no extradition would be necessary. The act of murder (pulling the trigger) took place on American soil, even though the body fell dead on Canadian soil. Perhaps the shooter would face charges in America because of this.
Right. Presumably Canadian police would collaborate in the initial investigation, but it seems to me that the prosecution should be entirely an American affair.
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### Author:  [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/19 "2011-07-20T18:25:09Z")
> [@spark240](#):
>
> Right. Presumably Canadian police would collaborate in the initial investigation, but it seems to me that the prosecution should be entirely an American affair.
Does the murder occur where the shot is fired or where the death occurs?
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-canadian-from-america/589689/20 "2011-07-20T18:39:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> Does the murder occur where the shot is fired or where the death occurs?
At common law, jurisdiction is proper in the place where the fatal force impinges on the body (i.e. where the bullet strikes), even if the actual death occurs in another jurisdiction. However, many jurisdictions (probably most) have abrogated the common law rule by statute so that jurisdiction may be exercised where any element of the act occurred, so if a victim gets shot from one jurisdiction while standing in another and then dies in a third, it’s possible for all three to prosecute, depending on how their statutes are written.
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