# Shooting a Squatter in a state with Castle Doctrine
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [April 16, 2022, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918 "2022-04-16T14:05:42Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/61 "2022-04-17T19:02:07Z")
Yes. The Grand Jury, hearing all the evidence, did not return a true bill. It is right there in your cite.
Posters do this all the time here. Based upon a news article, they decide to second guess the decision of a jury, even though news articles almost never cover all the evidence and testimony, since that would literally fill a book. (I have seen many trial transcripts- they are long, boring and tedious).
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### Author:  [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/62 "2022-04-17T19:18:07Z")
I remember reading a story here 10 years ago where a drunk man broke into a posters house at 1am, poster confronts drunk with a baseball bat telling him to get out of his house. Drunk man starts getting incredibly irate and starts throwing things at the poster, and the poster eventually out yelled the man and the man ran off screaming obscenities along the way.
I remember there were a pretty big number of people here who were basically “If you took a swing at that man even with just a body shot, you should go to prison for assault!” despite the drunk man being incredibly aggressive. Ill see if I can find the topic.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/63 "2022-04-17T19:22:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Yes. The Grand Jury, hearing all the evidence, did not return a true bill. It is right there in your cite.
Seriously?
That’s like saying _Dred Scott_ is fine…it’s right there in any cite. The decision was made. No more consideration is necessary. 🙄
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### Author:  [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/64 "2022-04-17T19:26:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> The Grand Jury, hearing all the evidence
The Grand Jury a decision based only on the evidence presented to them. The DA did not want to indict Joe Horn so they got scant evidence to do so.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/65 "2022-04-17T19:29:15Z")
Read the news article. Were those guys burglars? Yes, that is not disputed. Were they fleeing the scene? Yes, that is not disputed.
Thus under **pullin** s useful cite we find that shooting them was perfectly legal under _Texas law._ Now, you may think that law is stupid, or immoral, and I can’t disagree there. You should not be able to kill perps fleeing from a property crime, imho. **But that is the law in Texas.**
So, yes, the Texas legislature passed a law that we can disagree with. This only happens every freaken month.
But the blame goes on the Texas legislature and the Texas Governor (who, **imho** is a racist moron). Not the DA, and certainly not the Grand Jury. This also wasn’t jury nullification.
This also has nothing at all relevant to shooting a **squatter.** Those dudes were _burglars,_ not squatters.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/66 "2022-04-17T19:32:39Z")
Did you read the transcript? Was one even available?
In fact, just a plain reading of a (imho) ill advised Texas law means that if the jury had got every bit of evidence, they still would have had to return “no bill”.
Bad laws make bad court decisions.
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### Author:  [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/67 "2022-04-17T19:51:12Z")
No. Just speculation. I assume the DA did not want to indict. It would have been a major circus and It is likely that Joe Horn set it up. A real time sink with nothing to be gained.
I believe the DA made a deal with Horn’s daughter to get him out of town and away from the press.
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### Author:  [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/68 "2022-04-17T19:58:13Z")
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> Right. The statement that started all of this was something to the effect of that a homeowner returns and finds a squatter living in his basement that because of a “castle doctrine” or “stand your ground” or whatever gun law, that you can simply execute the squatter if he refuses to leave. That is demonstrably untrue anywhere.
You must have missed my post, just above yours.
This case is not exactly the same, but it’s similar enough to be instructive. A guy was in the common basement area of his apartment building, and killed an intruder. This will help you understand just how far Colorado law goes to protect the inhabitant.
> **[Colorado Supreme Court rules in favor of Colorado Springs Man in 'Make My...](https://www.koaa.com/news/covering-colorado/colorado-supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-colorado-springs-man-in-make-my-day-case)**
>
> The Colorado Supreme Court today confirmed the decision to dismiss the second degree murder case against Patrick Rau, ruling that the case did fall under Colorado's 'Make My Day' statute.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/69 "2022-04-17T20:00:38Z")
> [@Crane](#):
>
> No. Just speculation. I assume the DA did not want to indict. It would have been a major circus and It is likely that Joe Horn set it up. A real time sink with nothing to be gained.
Maybe, but the DA had no need to, as that %$#@! Texas law is quite clear.
Doesn’t make it right, but you are blaming the wrong people. Blame the texas lawmakers.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/70 "2022-04-17T21:04:48Z")
> [@Bootb](#):
>
> This case is not exactly the same, but it’s similar enough to be instructive. A guy was in the common basement area of his apartment building, and killed an intruder. This will help you understand just how far Colorado law goes to protect the inhabitant.
Yeah, this is a case in which indeed the law clearly extensively protects the lawful occupant in any confrontation that goes wrong.
It is also, if the report is accurate, reflective of _multiple_ laws/policies/practices that only make matters worse when they come together. One would expect that authorities would respond to remove an intruder trespassing in an occupied private residential property. But that runs into the elsewhere-established notion that police are not liable for _failing to stop a crime from happening_. If as stated “police officers had failed (or been slow) to respond to calls related to such unhoused individuals in the past,” that creates a situation in which the lawful occupant does not have a reasonable expectation that they can just back off and wait for the authorities to handle a break-in, as **MandaJo** mentioned earlier.
Interesting that the case partly hinged on trying to interpret the law as narrowed down to only your proper separate “living space” as opposed to ancillary common areas of the apartment house. So, just let the intruder to use your basement as his rest shelter and hope he goes away w/o setting a fire or flooding it?
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/71 "2022-04-17T21:05:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Maybe, but the DA had no need to, as that %$#@! Texas law is quite clear.
What Texas law?
ONE guy, the DA, ended the case. It never got to trial. A jury never got to apply Texas law.
One guy decided it would never get that far and ended it.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/72 "2022-04-17T21:40:02Z")
Have you read the thread? Have you read my posts? Jesus. It is right there.
A Grand Jury did, that is a jury, like it or not.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/73 "2022-04-17T23:22:13Z")
Pot, meet kettle.
Let me ask…do you know the difference between a grand jury and a regular jury? I would have guessed you do but now I am not so sure.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/74 "2022-04-17T23:49:07Z")
I have been on both. I have presented evidence to both.
Read Pullins post 45. Then my Post 58 & 64.
The DA took the case to a Grand Jury, whereupon the Jury decided “no true bill” aka no indictment, ie not enough evidence to go to trial.
I understand that people are outraged by this dude shooting two burglars in the back. It wouldn’t fly in most states. But this is Texas, and in Texas, per pullins cite, what that dude did was 100% legal. Sad commentary on the Texas Legislature and Governor. But not on the DA or the GJ, who performed their duty under the law… a bad law, sure maybe, but still the law in Texas.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/75 "2022-04-17T23:52:29Z")
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/76 "2022-04-17T23:53:54Z")
2 posters seemed to be arguing a minor point not central to the OP.
I’m closing this for 30 minutes. Then refocus back to the OP please.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2022, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/77 "2022-04-18T00:23:14Z")
This topic was automatically opened after 29 minutes.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2022, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/78 "2022-04-20T02:09:18Z")
Here’s a blast from the past:
[https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060)
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2022, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/79 "2022-04-20T02:12:00Z")
Link says that I am not allowed to view that.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2022, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-a-squatter-in-a-state-with-castle-doctrine/962918/80 "2022-04-20T02:12:57Z")
first attempt didn’t format right, try again.
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