# Shooting at CT Elementary School **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044 "2012-12-14T17:55:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/321 "2012-12-18T20:21:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think people need to know that if they have family members who are seriously ill, they aren’t alone and don’t have to try to handle it by themselves. And frankly, families shouldn’t have to wait until said relative is exhibiting _dangerous_ behaviors before the help kicks in. I think it’s far preferable for someone to get help _before_ they’re so off the rails that they’re dangerous. This is why I’m hammering on _support_. Let’s divert people who are having issues from going down the road to violence before they ever think to set foot on it. Let’s deal with the issue while it’s still something like mild depression or adjustment disorder (for example) and not wait until it’s something like homicidal rage. > [@](#): > > Does that mean even a stranger on the street would have known these people were disturbed? No. People close to them? Yes. Which is why I’d like to see more resources focused on mental health and an effort to encourage people to try to recognize when someone close to them is seriously ill and to face up to it instead of going into denial. +100 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/322 "2012-12-18T20:27:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If you look at a couple of examples I think you’ll see what I mean. Okay, here’s a list of “school massacres” by “rampage murderers” by order of number of victims: > **[List of rampage killers | School massacres](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers#School_massacres)** > > Only the first 15 entries are shown here. For the entire list see: List of rampage killers (school massacres) > See also List of school-related attacks From the worst on down: 1. > **[Andrew Kehoe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Kehoe)** > > Bolt-action rifle: > Andrew Philip Kehoe (February 1, 1872 – May 18, 1927) was an American mass murderer. Kehoe was a Michigan farmer who became disgruntled after losing reelection as treasurer of the Bath Township school board. He murdered his wife and then detonated bombs at the Bath Consolidated School on May 18, 1927, resulting in the Bath School disaster in which 45 people\[Note 2\] were killed and 58 more people were injured. Kehoe killed himself near the school by detonating dynamite in hi... Most notable characteristics: liked to tinker with stuff, so much so he was a failure. Was intelligent and would get angry with people who disagreed with him. He killed 48 people (and himself) and injured 58. 1. > **[Seung-Hui Cho](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho)** > > Cho Seung-hui\[a\] (Korean: 조승희; January 18, 1984 – April 16, 2007), anglicized as Seung-Hui Cho, was a South Korean mass murderer who was responsible for the Virginia Tech shooting in 2007. Cho killed 32 people and wounded 17 others with two semi-automatic pistols on April 16, 2007, at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia. This killing is the deadliest school shooting in U.S. history, and was at the time\[b\] the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history. A senior-level undergraduate Born in South... Clear warning signs, diagnosed with serious mental illness. He killed 32 and injured 17 1. > **[Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting)** > > On December 14, 2012, a mass shooting occurred at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, United States. The perpetrator, 20-year-old Adam Lanza, shot and killed 26 people. The victims were 20 children between six and seven years old, and 6 adult staff members. Earlier that day, before driving to the school, Lanza fatally shot his mother at their Newtown home. As first responders arrived at the school, Lanza killed himself with a gunshot to the head. > The incident is the deadlie... This is the one we are talking about. Currently, not much evidence of warning signs. Killed 27 injured 2. 1. > **[Dunblane massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre)** > > The Dunblane massacre took place at Dunblane Primary School in Dunblane, near Stirling, Scotland, on 13 March 1996, when 43-year-old Thomas Hamilton killed 16 pupils and one teacher and injured 15 others before killing himself. It remains the deadliest mass shooting in British history. > Following the killings, public debate centred on gun control laws, including public petitions for a ban on private ownership of handguns and an official inquiry, which produced the 1996 Cullen Report. > The inc... Several complaints about the perp’s inappropriate actions in respect of boys. Killed 17, injured 15. 1. > **[Erfurt school massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_massacre)** > > The Erfurt school massacre was a mass shooting that occurred on 26 April 2002 at the Gutenberg-Gymnasium, a secondary school in Erfurt, Thuringia, Germany. 19-year-old expelled student Robert Steinhäuser shot and killed 16 people, including a police officer before killing himself. One person was also wounded by a bullet fragment. According to students, he ignored them and aimed only for the teachers and administrators, although two students were unintentionally killed by shots fired through a l... Was expelled from school for forging a medical certificate in order to take some days off. Doesn’t list any clear warning signs, at least on wiki or the articles it cites. Killed 16 injured 1. … So of the top 5 school - rampage killers in history, 2 showed clear signs (nos. 2 and 4), 2 did not (nos. 1 and 5) and one the jury is still out on - but so far does not (no. 3). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/323 "2012-12-18T20:33:44Z")
According to Wikipedia, the National Institute of Mental Health has an annual budget of $1.5 billion, compared to $5 billion for the National Cancer Institute. Would increasing the amount spent on the NIMH help to prevent this sort of thing in the future? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/324 "2012-12-18T20:58:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > So of the top 5 school - rampage killers in history, 2 showed clear signs (nos. 2 and 4), 2 did not (nos. 1 and 5) and one the jury is still out on - but so far does not (no. 3). I was referring mostly to the recent shooting spree perpetrators. Kehoe died 85 years ago, so that doesn’t make for much of a comparison. [The Aurora shooter met with mental health services at school, asked a friend about a particular disorder and warned him to stay away from him.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes) The Virginia Tech shooter, as you noted, was known to be ill and pretty much scared the crap out of everyone around him. [The Tucson shooter was similar.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner#Changes_in_attitude_and_demeanor) We’re still waiting for some specifics about the Newtown shooter. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/325 "2012-12-18T21:09:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think someone may have said this to me earlier and I didn’t grasp what it meant, but the only source for the Asperger’s “diagnosis” is Lanza’s surviving brother. He said he felt his brother might’ve had something like Asperger’s based on his odd behavior. It stands to reason that he actually had something much more dangerous that a layperson wouldn’t have recognized as distinct from autism or Asperger’s. And don’t these types of disorders often get worse in a patient’s teens and 20s? According to CNN: > [@](#): > > A former director of security for Newtown Public Schools shed new light Monday night on the gunman, Adam Lanza. > > Richard Novia said Lanza had Asperger’s syndrome, based on documents as well as conversations with Lanza’s mother, who was killed shortly before the Sandy Hook massacre. > > Novia said that as part of his job, which he left in 2008, he would be informed of students who might pose problems to themselves or others. > > He also said he received “intake information,” which he said “is common for any students troubled or impaired or with disabilities.” The idea was to keep track of and help students who may need it. > > However, Novia said he never thought Lanza was a threat and certainly never thought he was capable of such violence. So apparently there was an official diagnosis of Aspergers. StG ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/326 "2012-12-18T21:21:20Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > According to CNN: > > So apparently there was an official diagnosis of Aspergers. > > StG Finally, some real information. However, it doesn’t clarify whether Lanza was exhibiting troubling behavior prior to the shooting. Aspergers isn’t typically associated with an increased likelihood for aggression, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/327 "2012-12-18T21:34:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I was referring mostly to the recent shooting spree perpetrators. Kehoe died 85 years ago, so that doesn’t make for much of a comparison. [The Aurora shooter met with mental health services at school, asked a friend about a particular disorder and warned him to stay away from him.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes) The Virginia Tech shooter, as you noted, was known to be ill and pretty much scared the crap out of everyone around him. [The Tucson shooter was similar.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner#Changes_in_attitude_and_demeanor) We’re still waiting for some specifics about the Newtown shooter. No-one doubts that many spree killers show clear signs of mental illness and other warning signs in advance. My point is that some apparently do not. The reason I used a Wiki list and simply scooped the top 5 by victim count for this exact category of crime (school shootings) was that this appeared to me to be a (somewhat) valid way to avoid selection bias, for the purposes of a thread like this. I have no doubt whatsoever that screening those who display warning signs is a good idea. I’m simply saying it will not be 100% effective, even if people are infallible in their diagnosis, because some reasonable percentage of perps don’t really display signs in advance (according to my very brief and unscientific survey) - at least signs that can be recognized above the “noise” of stuff people do all the time. In hindsight, of course, things that would otherwise be innocuous (like being introverted, or easy to anger) become sinister. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/328 "2012-12-20T14:51:22Z")
And in the wake of the shooting, bulletproof backpacks are selling like hotcakes. Story [here](http://theweek.com/article/index/238017/the-skyrocketing-sales-of-bulletproof-backpacks-for-kids). One of the companies is called Amendment II – Get it? Second Amendment – with a range that includes Disney Princess and Avengers versions. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/329 "2012-12-20T15:12:02Z")
I saw a mention of those bulletproof backpacks somewhere, so I looked at the manufacturer’s website. The backpacks are $300, which is a lot. On the other hand, the average schoolkid has so many books in his or her backpack that the sheer mass is probably going to stop a bullet, so perhaps the bulletproofing isn’t really necessary? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/330 "2012-12-20T15:15:46Z")
I like the idea of simply strapping textbooks to children as a cheap form of armor. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/331 "2012-12-20T18:31:22Z")
[Christopher Johnson Enters Virginia Sandy Hook Elementary With 2x4 Labeled ‘Rifle’ (VIDEO)](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/20/christopher-johnson-sandy-hook-elementary-rifle_n_2337894.html?utm_hp_ref=crime) ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/332 "2012-12-20T19:03:32Z")
[Sandy Hook School Girl Plays Dead, Survives Elementary Shooting;](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/sandy-hook-school-girl-plays-dead-survives_n_2315947.html) I have no words. That poor child. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/333 "2012-12-20T23:32:37Z")
there was a kid who did the same thing at the mcdonald shooting in california. still haunts him today. [Haunted By The Massacre At Mcdonald's | The Seattle Times](http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19940717&slug=1920774) ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/334 "2012-12-21T07:00:26Z")
I read an interesting column in the Washington Times today. The writer was questioning whether gun control or better mental health care would have prevented the shooting. His conclusions? No potential shooter would decide not to kill anyone because the weapon they intended to use was illegal. So gun control is out. More attention to mental health would assure that the killer would be found not guilty by reason of insanity and he would get off scot-free. So what should we do? > [@](#): > > Perhaps Adam Lanza committed evil because he was evil. Try explaining that to a culture which embraces moral relativism and rejects the kind of God who would send people to hell. Maybe we have been too quick to dismiss the obvious. > > Lanza is not the first killer to “escape justice.” Adolf Hitler managed to avoid capture and accountability from the Allies by taking a cyanide capsule. Supposing his next conscious moment was the judgment seat of God where he answered for his crimes and eventually paid in hell forever? All at once, hell looks like less of a horrible doctrine and more of a comfort. It provides a sense of justice sadly lacking from anti-gun bills and psychological explanations. Do nothing and let god sort it out. Magic! That’s the ticket! ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/335 "2012-12-21T20:27:56Z")
I don’t think that guy understands how the ‘not guilty by reason of insanity’ defense works. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/336 "2012-12-21T20:32:02Z")
> [@lisacurl](#): > > I don’t think that guy understands how the ‘not guilty by reason of insanity’ defense works. In alot of states all that means is the defendent ends up in a state mental hospital rather than state prison. Often for longer than they would with a simple guilty verdict. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/337 "2012-12-22T16:43:00Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > In alot of states all that means is the defendent ends up in a state mental hospital rather than state prison. Often for longer than they would with a simple guilty verdict. True, but you can stir up more trouble by saying that he was found not guilty and pretend that means you get to go home. There’s always someone who doesn’t know how the law works. If you’re counting on Jeebus to punish the guilty, you may not be paying a lot of attention to what happens in the interim. I think he just regrets that the perp gets a long sentence in an institution instead of a quick trip to the electric chair. It’s harder to claim that someone is the devil’s pawn if there’s evidence that they’re insane. There’s a certain mindset that follows the motto “Kill 'em all and let Jesus sort it out” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/338 "2012-12-22T17:00:47Z")
> [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > Do nothing and let god sort it out. Magic! That’s the ticket! The suggested gun reform would fall under the category of do nothing and magic. If you don’t address the problem then it won’t go away. There are crazy people out there and a properly armed and trained person in the school directly addresses that problem. It wouldn’t require a full time guard. The cost of that could be directed into the training of a dozen staff members. If you truly want to “do something” then the problem needs to be correctly defined and then action taken in the most cost effective way. That applies to all problems. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/339 "2013-01-09T18:57:26Z")
Oh, but William Lane Craig says the Christmas season shooting was a reminder of the message of Christmas because it’s connected to Herod’s massacre… [http://www.theaunicornist.com/2012/12/william-lane-craig-on-sandy-hook.html](http://www.theaunicornist.com/2012/12/william-lane-craig-on-sandy-hook.html) :mad: ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044/340 "2013-01-10T14:53:56Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Oh, but William Lane Craig says the Christmas season shooting was a reminder of the message of Christmas because it’s connected to Herod’s massacre… Just wait 'til you see what he’s cooked up for Obama during the Easter holiday! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-at-ct-elementary-school/644044.md?page=16)