# Shooting for Sweden, Hitting Venezuela **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952 "2018-09-07T16:46:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/61 "2018-09-08T10:35:54Z")
Although the OP is a long block of text, I think he and others are on to one thing: Socialism, like democracy, is only as effective as its people. If your people are Swedes or Finns, it can work. If your people are Americans, it probably can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/62 "2018-09-08T12:19:00Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Tell me the truth: Did you really not understand that my entire post was a satirical Whoooosh? Yep. In the current political climate, I have no satire-dar. Otherwise I would think every trumpist was hilarious. > [@Velocity](#): > > Socialism, like democracy, is only as effective as its people. If your people are Swedes or Finns, it can work. > > If your people are Americans, it probably can’t. Sweden and Finland are not socialist countries. And many of the policies that social democrats in the US are promoting have been successfully implemented in a great many countries, including many multicultural societies. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/63 "2018-09-08T13:55:42Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > While the US is nowhere near the basket case of Venezuela economically, it is much closer to them in many respects. The US is a violent, unequal society, split by race and by partisanship. The federal government, by design, is very difficult to make large changes. It has two parties more interested in blaming the other than actual governing and neither party seems to have no interest in admitting mistakes and fixing them. > A great example is Head Start, it was started in 1965 to help poor children achieve academically. In 2000 the government commissioned a ten year study to assess how it was achieving those goals. The study found that Head Start had no lasting positive impact on student academics. Since that study funding has increased from 5.2 billion a year to 9.8 billion a year, and there has been no serious effort to either reform or end the program. Most Democrats want to expand the program to include all children and the Republicans just voted a 200 million dollar increase in the budget. > Another example is the Medicare doc fix, a program that was supposed to rein in the US’s highest in the world healthcare spending. It was passed during a spasm of budgetary responsibility, the medical lobby then went to work and got the spending cuts delayed every year for 17 straight years under both parties and then repealed. Interest on the national debt is forecasted to reach 1 trillion dollars a year in a little over a decade and yet there is no serious movement to either rein in spending or raise taxes on anyone other than the rich. There is no political will to make changes to programs that are popular with a large enough section of the voters. We’re certainly not Venezuela or even close, even though we do have problems. I’d like to see both parties be more responsible with the overall budget. When one party is in power, the other screams about debt, until they come into power, and then they go along with the usual debt/deficits or make it even worse. A great example is Paul Ryan putting on a big act in 2009 on the house floor about debt “as far as the eye can see”, and then passing a 2 trillion dollar tax-cut in 2017, which will increase the debt & deficits over the next decade at least. Having said that, we are not in any danger of debt overwhelming our ability to pay for the things we need. Our net debt/gdp is somewhere in the 77% range as of 2017 and is projected to reach about 96% in 2028. It’s not great, but it’s not something to consider an emergency, where we all of the sudden hit a fiscal wall. It’s something we can slowly change the trajectory if we wanted. Currently the Republicans are in power, and they have no interest in that, as their tax cuts must take precedent. I think the Dems are more fiscally responsible than Republicans, but that’s not saying much, and in any event, they’re out of power. > **[CBO’s Projections of Deficits and Debt for the 2018–2028 Period](https://www.cbo.gov/publication/53781)** > > Last Monday, CBO released The Budget and Economic Outlook: 2018 to 2028. This week, CBO is publishing daily blog posts to share key excerpts from the report, and today’s post is about the agency’s projections of federal deficits and debt. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/64 "2018-09-08T14:28:25Z")
Anyone remember back in 2010 when most economists were calling for stimulus, and a handful of right-wing economists (and, unfortunately, the house and senate republicans) warned that we would end up like Greece if we didn’t take our debt seriously? And remember how the US’s situation was _nothing like Greece’s_, and there’s absolutely no way for what happened in Greece to happen in a country that can freely print its own currency? And remember how every one of their predictions were [painfully, destructively wrong](http://theweek.com/articles/789956/biggest-policy-mistake-last-decade)? I’m getting echoes of that here. The comparisons to Venezuela are just _silly_. Venezuela’s problem is not “socialism”. It’s [single-party authoritarian misrule by populist strongmen who have no idea what the fuck they’re doing](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/05/what-venezuela-tells-us-about-socialism). It’s gross mismanagement and kleptocracy. It’s the rich working with the government to take whatever the hell they can get their hands on. There are factors in the USA that resemble this trend, but they aren’t currently typified by the people pushing for socialized health care. The comparisons are just _batty_. To quote that Current Affairs article: > [@](#): > > **I am not sure what it would mean to call Venezuela’s government left-wing, if it did not follow any of the principles that I consider central to being on the left**. For example, it has been accused of being anti-labor; the government “crushed unions while firing and blacklisting tens of thousands of workers for their political opinions,” and “anti-union discrimination, violations of collective bargaining rights and the non-respect of collective agreements were frequent and persistent in both the public and private sector.” It also quotes [this WSJ entry](https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-tragedy-of-venezuela-1527177202) at length: > [@](#): > > What struck me on arriving was how little the Socialist leaders cared about even the appearance of equality. They showed up at press conferences in shantytowns in motorcades of brand new armored SUVs. They toured tumbledown factories on live state TV wearing Rolexes and carrying Chanel handbags. They shuttled journalists to decaying state-run oil fields on private jets with gilded toilet paper dispensers. > > […] > > As the recession took hold in Venezuela, the so-called Socialist government made no attempt to shield health care and education, the two supposed pillars of its program. This wasn’t socialism. It was kleptocracy—the rule of thieves. > > […] > > Even Mr. Maduro has given up on the Socialist pretence, chucking leftist slogans in favor of straightforward clientelism: Vote for me and you’ll get a food handout. The red flags and shirts of Mr. Chavez’s heyday have largely disappeared from state television, an the ruling Socialist Party is being supplanted by Mr. Maduro’s new, anodyne-sounding political movement, We Are Venezuela. We can have discussions about socialism and the effect of socialism. But socialism is a slippery word with a lot of different meanings. Some people take it to mean “any government action”. Others take it to mean “government ownership of businesses”. Others take it to mean “social democracy”. Often, people intentionally conflate these definitions to make any action the government could take to make life better for the people sound like a stepping stone on the road to the gulags. But not only is it _profoundly_ unfair to compare the proposed policies of the American Left to Venezuela no matter what label you use for it, there’s really no argument to be made that Venezuela is socialist or leftist to begin with. Here’s a tip - when your government is cracking down on labor unions, _you’re not socialist_. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/65 "2018-09-08T15:54:45Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Anyone remember back in 2010 when most economists were calling for stimulus, and a handful of right-wing economists (and, unfortunately, the house and senate republicans) warned that we would end up like Greece if we didn’t take our debt seriously? And remember how the US’s situation was _nothing like Greece’s_, and there’s absolutely no way for what happened in Greece to happen in a country that can freely print its own currency? And remember how every one of their predictions were [painfully, destructively wrong](http://theweek.com/articles/789956/biggest-policy-mistake-last-decade)? Yes, remember that well. The funny thing is that alot of the politicians who were echoing the “we’re gonna be Greece” crowd are the same folks that supported the most recent deficit-increasing tax cut. Their predictions were wrong back in 2009/2010. And for alot of them, there was a dishonesty to their “Greece” concerns, as became evident with the 2017 tax cuts. And if these are the same people as the “we’re gonna be Venezuela” crowd, then I think we know how this will play out… ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/66 "2018-09-08T16:35:40Z")
What I find frustrating is that we’re decades into a discussion of whether and how the US should implement single-payer healthcare (like every other developed and even some less developed countries) but undertake trillion-dollar wars with little or no discussion. (George W Bush’s wars in Iraq and Afghanistan cost more than [two trillion dollars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War#Indirect_and_delayed_costs).) But at least wars don’t make us socialists, because that would be the worst thing. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/67 "2018-09-08T18:36:51Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > It’s a simplification. What is going on in the US is that we pay healthcare providers more for their services than in other countries. Our physician and nurses salaries are the highest in the world. Physician salaries especially are incredibly high in comparison to their European counterparts (Why is always the question, but a lot of it has to do with the fact that the AMA acts like a cartel in the US and limits the number of practitioners via statute.) Due to the amount that we pay, we’re also innovation centers that effectively subsidize research to the rest of the world. Pharmaceuticals is one of the easiest places to see this. Pharmaceutical companies basically run their development budgets off of the US market. Non-US countries move to generics much more quickly and so US consumers are footing the bill for research costs via higher drug costs. It’s a situation where the rest of the world likes to shake their head at the US paying so much, but they really don’t want to see the US stop paying so much either … > > … everyone agrees that the US spends too much on healthcare, but no one really wants to see a world where we stop spending so much. There is so much wrongness wrapped up in those few sentences that it almost reads like a parody of right-wing misinformation on health care. When I saw it yesterday I just sort of sighed and moved on, not having the energy to deal with it. But let me now take a stab at the key points of wrongness. 1. Nurses in the US [do not obviously make more than in Canada](https://woman.thenest.com/difference-rn-pay-usa-canada-13267.html). In fact the highest-paid nurses are in Canada, and except for Quebec, most of the lowest-paid are in the US. Your statement implying that American nurses are making out like bandits is false. 2. Doctors are a different matter, but “salaries” isn’t a valid metric since most doctors are effectively business owners and the valid metric is fees and revenues. And they are indeed the highest in the world, but why? Because of the astounding overhead of dealing with insurance paperwork and non-payments from patients and insurers, for which doctors have to maintain dedicated staff, and none of which exists in sensible health care systems. Additional factors are lack of cost controls which enables profiteering among some, and the costs of malpractice insurance. All of those things are serious _ **problems** _ with the system, not features. They don’t contribute quality, they detract from it: costs and out-of-pocket payments discourage doctor visits and early diagnosis and drive demands for unnecessary testing, and for-profit hospitals have been shown to have lower standards and poorer outcomes than non-profit ones. 3. The ability of pharmaceutical companies to price-gouge in the US marketplace has little to do with the health care system or the high costs thereof, but to lack of regulation. In Canada, for instance, there is a federal authority called the [Patent Medicine Prices Review Board](http://pmprb-cepmb.gc.ca/home) which requires drug companies to justify the prices charged for brand name drugs protected by patents. It’s simply a consumer protection agency and has no connection with provincial health care plans. 4. The idea that profiteering in the health care industry has anything to do with innovation is laughable nonsense. Doctors making extortionate incomes certainly don’t fund medical research, and insurance companies making enormous profits don’t fund anything except their executives’ yachts and golf club memberships. Health insurers are basically parasites on the industry contributing zero value, since public single-payer can do a far better job and provide universal coverage for everyone at a fraction of the cost. Furthermore, expensive high-end medical technology is targeted to global markets, not just the US market, and most of the innovation for expensive technology like MRI and CT machines comes from outside the US, [as I described here](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21188416&postcount=442), the key quote being the following: **among the top 10 diagnostic imaging innovators, only two are American** (or three if you count GE’s UK subsidiary), and except for GE they’re mostly small players in this market. 5. I’m amused at the idea that “no one really wants to see a world where we stop spending so much”. Actually, I think _ **everyone** _ wants to see less waste and better outcomes like in the rest of the civilized world, with the exception of those who directly benefit from the waste: health insurers, health care administrators, and the worst of the profiteering extortionists who ply their trade in the industry. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/68 "2018-09-08T23:21:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Socialism, like democracy, is only as effective as its people. If your people are Swedes or Finns, it can work. > > If your people are Americans, it probably can’t. Cripes folks, it’s apparently an actual PR campaign. 😕 Exactly when did the standard conservative critique of socialism start switching from _“The miseries of overtaxed socialist poverty may be good enough for those wussy loser cheap-furniture Scandinavians, but they’re sure not good enough for US!”_ to _“Those clear-eyed cold-hardy extra-white Scandinavians may be good enough for clean-governance socialist prosperity, but WE sure aren’t!”_ ? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/69 "2018-09-08T23:26:12Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I must have missed the post about the magical foreign healthcare dust that will suddenly cause everything to be one sixth the price. > Full UHC costs vary by country, Canada pays 4 times the cost per person that Mexico does. Is Canada getting gouged by its healthcare system and why don’t they switch to Mexico’s system and pay one quarter what they are paying now? > In order to pay for the US system to go to Medicare for all costs would at least be 3.2 trillion a year and more likely would be 3.6 trillion a year. Any attempt to cut the US healthcare cost by a huge percentage would result in chaos. What you have right now is chaos with massively expensive inefficiencies. If you ditch the chaos and go with single payer, you’ll end up living longer, living healthier longer, paying less out of your personal pockets, and paying less through your governments’ pockets, such as we do here in Canada. Try comparing the USA against first world nations like Canada rather than third world nations like Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/70 "2018-09-08T23:29:45Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > The US spends 3.3 % of GDP on defense. France spends 2.3 and the UK 1.8. Meanwhile, the US spends 18 % of GDP on healthcare while France spends 11 % and the UK 9%. So you know, I don’t see how that extra 1 % of gdp on the military means you have to spend an extra 9 % on healthcare, or how saving it would somehow help. > > Meanwhile, the European NATO forces has 1,5 million personnel. The vast majority professional. Russia has 750 000 about half conscripts. So I am not sure what the US would be protecting anyone from exactly. Protecting yourself from that security threat Canada, [according to Trump](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trump+canada+security+threat). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/71 "2018-09-09T00:37:07Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > The US spends 3.3 % of GDP on defense. France spends 2.3 and the UK 1.8. Meanwhile, the US spends 18 % of GDP on healthcare while France spends 11 % and the UK 9%. So you know, I don’t see how that extra 1 % of gdp on the military means you have to spend an extra 9 % on healthcare, or how saving it would somehow help. > > Meanwhile, the European NATO forces has 1,5 million personnel. The vast majority professional. Russia has 750 000 about half conscripts. So I am not sure what the US would be protecting anyone from exactly. That gives me an idea. Forget about supporting UHC in order to improve the lives of Americans. Sell it instead that if we cut the cost by say 4% GDP we’ll have a lot of extra money to spend on shiny tanks and destroyers and planes. “Reduce money for shots, increase money for shooting!” They’ll eat it right up. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/72 "2018-09-09T00:39:13Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Protecting yourself from that security threat Canada, [according to Trump](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trump+canada+security+threat). [South Park is prescient again.](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj5tt6f16zdAhUO2qwKHXHtDewQyCkwAHoECAcQBQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbOR38552MJA&usg=AOvVaw3CP2ID0mf7E5NJ1oPblaMy) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/73 "2018-09-09T07:56:28Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > … Try comparing the USA against first world nations like Canada rather than third world nations like Mexico. 😕 Why? OP’s thesis seems to be that the U.S.A. _is_ a third-world nation, but which just happens to have a lot of wealth (and is thus somewhat similar to Venezuela with its huge petroleum reserves). One of the major political parties seems to agree with OP. It wasn’t long ago that I’d have laughed at this thesis. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/74 "2018-09-09T12:50:13Z")
It’s just possible other nations spend less on defence because they’re not spending so much time and energy making enemies, engaging in foreign conflicts and meddling in the affairs of other nations. Perhaps they value quality education for all, social safety nets for the in need, and equal healthcare for everyone, above bigger, better war machines, larger standing armies etc. Just something to consider. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/75 "2018-09-10T01:01:39Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Protecting yourself from that security threat Canada, [according to Trump](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trump+canada+security+threat). According to Trump, one of the gravest threats to US national security is the Canadian cow, [pictured here](https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/trumpcow.jpg?w=990) along with her presidential adversary, with the cow looking considerably more intelligent. The Canadian cow is such a threat that this is presumably why Trump has to partner with his trusted ally, Vladimir Putin, to fend off this global scourge. The accompanying story is [here](https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2017/04/trump-blames-canada-massive-us-dairy-overproduction/), with more details [here](https://www.milkbusiness.com/article/trumps-270-canadian-dairy-tariff-fact-or-fiction). The short version is that the US has a massive overproduction of dairy products, and would like to dump the overproduction on Canada. Trump was furious when he found out that the Canadian government imposes quotas on diary imports roughly limited by what the Canadian population is capable of consuming, and then levying 270% tariffs on imports over this quota as an anti-dumping measure. He falsely claims that 270% tariffs are always imposed on all US dairy imports, and hence the Canadian cow was demonized and has become for Trump what Alger Hiss was for Nixon. Both men, fittingly, battled an intellectual nemesis matching their own cerebral aptitude. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/76 "2018-09-10T01:09:19Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > According to Trump, one of the gravest threats to US national security is the Canadian cow, [pictured here](https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/trumpcow.jpg?w=990) along with her presidential adversary, with the cow looking considerably more intelligent. The Canadian cow is such a threat that this is presumably why Trump has to partner with his trusted ally, Vladimir Putin, to fend off this global scourge. The accompanying story is [here](https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2017/04/trump-blames-canada-massive-us-dairy-overproduction/), with more details [here](https://www.milkbusiness.com/article/trumps-270-canadian-dairy-tariff-fact-or-fiction). > > The short version is that the US has a massive overproduction of dairy products, and would like to dump the overproduction on Canada. Trump was furious when he found out that the Canadian government imposes quotas on diary imports roughly limited by what the Canadian population is capable of consuming, and then levying 270% tariffs on imports over this quota as an anti-dumping measure. He falsely claims that 270% tariffs are always imposed on all US dairy imports, and hence the Canadian cow was demonized and has become for Trump what Alger Hiss was for Nixon. Both men, fittingly, battled an intellectual nemesis matching their own cerebral aptitude. I’m totally with you about Trump and trade with Canada (among many issues that I have with Trump). But you lost me on the Nixon/Hiss analogy. What happened with Nixon/Hiss that’s similar to Trump & cows. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/77 "2018-09-10T02:10:05Z")
You’re overthinking it. Just look at [these two faces](https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/trumpcow.jpg?w=990) and tell me which one looks more intelligent. 😃 Also, though this is getting off topic, [this is a succinct analysis](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2018/06/13/a-trumped-up-charge-against-canadian-dairy-tariffs/) from the Brookings Institution about why the whole dairy kerfuffle with Canada is just typical Trump-manufactured nonsense. Incidentally, and on the first topic, notice in the picture accompanying the Brookings article that all four cows closest to the camera are looking at it. Why? Because they’re curious, a sign of at least rudimentary intelligence. Trump has famously never been curious about anything in his life, which is why he doesn’t know anything. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/78 "2018-09-10T03:34:09Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Are you telling me that America isn’t able to accomplish stuff that France handles effortlessly? Nobody needs to be told that, it’s self-evident. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/79 "2018-09-10T03:37:15Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > I’m totally with you about Trump and trade with Canada (among many issues that I have with Trump). But you lost me on the Nixon/Hiss analogy. What happened with Nixon/Hiss that’s similar to Trump & cows. Nixon was about as bright as Hiss, and fought against him. Trump is fighting against cows, because someone like Alger Hiss is way out of his league. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952/80 "2018-09-10T03:42:53Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 Why? > OP’s thesis seems to be that the U.S.A. _is_ a third-world nation, but which just happens to have a lot of wealth (and is thus somewhat similar to Venezuela with its huge petroleum reserves). One of the major political parties seems to agree with OP. > > It wasn’t long ago that I’d have laughed at this thesis. It’s not a third-world nation of course, but it has the fear of everyone, and the backstabbing, and the psychotic fixation on weapons and armies, and the criminal for a president, that you would expect to find in a third-world nation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-for-sweden-hitting-venezuela/820952.md?page=5)