# "Shooting migrants in the legs". Is this legal? If Area 51 trespassers can be shot... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2019, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133 "2019-10-02T02:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/21 "2019-10-02T14:56:49Z")
We spend less than 60 billion a year on immigrants, totally ignoring any economic benefits they bring by buying American goods and services while living here, payments into Social Security or other taxes, or any other benefit. We spend more than ten times that on the military each year. That is a much, MUCH bigger cost than immigrants. Why don’t we cut military spending to 90% of the current rate, still leaving us at around DOUBLE the spending of Russia (69 billion) and China (200 billion) combined, and over 30% of global military spending. Then we can take the money we save and cover the entire cost of immigration (and then some). ---
**Author:** ![Annoyed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f04885/32.png) [@Annoyed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoyed)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/22 "2019-10-02T15:03:39Z")
No, 60 billion is AFTER taking out illegal aliens social security contributions and paid taxes (which are likely being withheld because of a fake or stolen social security card/number). And spending, what, 2.5% of our GDP on our own countrymen and women is somehow even comparable to the billions and billions it costs the taxpayer to fund illegal aliens? Also absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Annoyed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f04885/32.png) [@Annoyed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoyed)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/23 "2019-10-02T15:06:44Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > We spend less than 60 billion a year on immigrants, totally ignoring any economic benefits they bring by buying American goods and services while living here, payments into Social Security or other taxes, or any other benefit. > > We spend more than ten times that on the military each year. That is a much, MUCH bigger cost than immigrants. Why don’t we cut military spending to 90% of the current rate, still leaving us at around DOUBLE the spending of Russia (69 billion) and China (200 billion) combined, and over 30% of global military spending. Then we can take the money we save and cover the entire cost of immigration (and then some). Why? Why spend all that on supporting an illegal immigration system when that money can be passed directly and indirectly back to the taxpayer? It’s like you guys think of every possible reason not to stop illegal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/24 "2019-10-02T15:07:04Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > How about lower state taxes, lower property taxes, lower healthcare costs, more educational funds going to citizens not aliens. Taking a chip out of the deficit. All these things impact the people in the country who need this money the most - lower middle class and below. Right - you aren’t trying to help citizens with better healthcare or schools. It’s just another reason why conservatives want to cut taxes and services to everyone. If the weather is good, cut taxes and services. If it is bad, cut taxes and services. Too many immigrants, cut taxes and services. No immigrants, cut taxes and services. By the way, I googled it: shoplifting costs the economy $50 billion a year. Meanwhile, illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they consume in benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Annoyed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f04885/32.png) [@Annoyed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoyed)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/25 "2019-10-02T15:39:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Right - you aren’t trying to help citizens with better healthcare or schools. It’s just another reason why conservatives want to cut taxes and services to everyone. If the weather is good, cut taxes and services. If it is bad, cut taxes and services. Too many immigrants, cut taxes and services. No immigrants, cut taxes and services. > > By the way, I googled it: shoplifting costs the economy $50 billion a year. Meanwhile, illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they consume in benefits. Haha yeah, you don’t know how property/state taxes work do you, and you’re real good at getting yourself in a fuss over something I never said nor implied. I never said anything about cutting services at all, services will become cheaper and will require less funding - less taxes. Every mainstream lefty right now chants about raising taxes on the “1%” and people paying their “fair share” yet we bleed money left right and center and no one gives a shit. We waste more money that even imaginable and if we wound that in we would have enough to spare to help so many more people without even increasing welfare. And it’s funny the way you worded your last sentence. No matter how you choose to deceptively arrange your words, illegal aliens cost the taxpayer shitloads both federally, locally (even more so) and everywhere in between including the hospital and everywhere else. There is literally nothing stopping you from taking your money and donating to the charity of your choice. Hell, you can even donate it to the IRS yourself if you like, but getting pissy because people want to keep their own heard earned wealth instead of paying for totally ineligible illegal aliens is why you’ll always have Republicans/opposition parties. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/26 "2019-10-02T15:50:52Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > Why? Why spend all that on supporting an illegal immigration system when that money can be passed directly and indirectly back to the taxpayer? > > It’s like you guys think of every possible reason not to stop illegal immigration. No, we’re merely observing that whenever a Republican says "Why are we spending money on illegal immigrants when we could be helping the homeless or veterans or the poor working class, it never seems to be accompanied by any plan to actually help the homeless or veterans or the poor working class and instead is usually accompanied by plans to funnel yet more money to the wealthiest people. It’s like you guys don’t really care about illegal immigration; it’s just another distraction from the looting of the country. It’s also noteworthy that this deep concern about illegal immigration amongst Republicans is quite recent - right about the time Trump got elected and started an active anti-immigrant propaganda campaign. Prior to that, they were considerably less concerned. Back in 2013, the Democrats proposed a $53 million program of enhancements to the border including increased personnel and surveillance capabilities, some increased barriers where deemed appropriate and improved processing capacity for detainees\*. And the Republicans rejected it, probably because Obama and the Democrats were for it. And illegal immigration fell between then and the end of the Obama administration, so the newfound interest in illegal immigrants isn’t based on that. Hmm. \*Note that this is substantially different than the current “let’s just build a big wall” proposal. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/27 "2019-10-02T15:52:55Z")
The thing you don’t understand is that basically nobody is in favor of open borders. Sure, there’s some libertarian types out there, but really among Democrats, the vast majority are totally fine deporting illegal migrants. But the difference is that Dems have an actual understanding of the complexities of immigration, and don’t just fall into the scapegoating that so often blurs the line into racism. And in the same spirit of “libs can always donate to charities,” you can always stop eating fruit and vegetables and put the largest employers of illegal immigrants out of business. ---
**Author:** ![Annoyed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f04885/32.png) [@Annoyed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoyed)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/28 "2019-10-02T16:02:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > No, we’re merely observing that whenever a Republican says "Why are we spending money on illegal immigrants when we could be helping the homeless or veterans or the poor working class, it never seems to be accompanied by any plan to actually help the homeless or veterans or the poor working class and instead is usually accompanied by plans to funnel yet more money to the wealthiest people. It’s like you guys don’t really care about illegal immigration; it’s just another distraction from the looting of the country. > > It’s also noteworthy that this deep concern about illegal immigration amongst Republicans is quite recent - right about the time Trump got elected and started an active anti-immigrant propaganda campaign. Prior to that, they were considerably less concerned. Back in 2013, the Democrats proposed a $53 million program of enhancements to the border including increased personnel and surveillance capabilities, some increased barriers where deemed appropriate and improved processing capacity for detainees\*. And the Republicans rejected it, probably because Obama and the Democrats were for it. And illegal immigration fell between then and the end of the Obama administration, so the newfound interest in illegal immigrants isn’t based on that. Hmm. > \*Note that this is substantially different than the current “let’s just build a big wall” proposal. No, you’re merely stating what you think we are saying while completely ignoring what we are saying. That’s what you’re doing. And the border funding package you’re referring to was little different than the recent funding package circus that was embarrassingly put forward by the left. There was zero intention to stop anything. It was more money to continue doing the exact same thing they have been doing, which is nothing. And then the next year? More money again. And the next? More taxpayer billions thrown away while the middle class dies off. Something that can be done is let people keep more of their own money, that they earned, that’s theirs, so they can buy food. Rent. Therapists. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/29 "2019-10-02T16:18:38Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > Something that can be done is let people keep more of their own money, that they earned, that’s theirs, so they can buy food. Rent. Therapists. You do realize that’s merely another way to say “fuck the poor”, yes ? ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/30 "2019-10-02T16:28:54Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > Something that can be done is let people keep more of their own money, that they earned, that’s theirs, so they can buy food. Rent. Therapists. Rescinding tariffs would do exactly that, no? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/31 "2019-10-02T16:31:48Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > No, you’re merely stating what you think we are saying while completely ignoring what we are saying. That’s what you’re doing. No, I’m paying attention to what you’re doing and noting that it is at odds with what you’re saying. As usual. > [@](#): > > And the border funding package you’re referring to was little different than the recent funding package circus that was embarrassingly put forward by the left. There was zero intention to stop anything. It was more money to continue doing the exact same thing they have been doing, which is nothing. And then the next year? More money again. And the next? More taxpayer billions thrown away while the middle class dies off. None of that is remotely true. It does, however, accurately apply to the current GOP border control proposals. Tens or hundreds of billions on a Wall that can be scaled in seconds? Yes, that seems sensible. And the GOP economic policies are doing far more damage to the middle class than anything the Democrats have proposed. Winning that trade war! > [@](#): > > Something that can be done is let people keep more of their own money, that they earned, that’s theirs, so they can buy food. Rent. Therapists. Eating cake. That sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/32 "2019-10-02T16:35:50Z")
Immigration is a net benefit to countries. By regulating immigration you can enhance the benefit further - allow the healthy, educated, strong, smart, attractive in, for example. While there are some ethical concerns about those types of distinctions, at least it makes sense on some level. Just eliminating immigration is just stupid. We can see how things go for countries with a lower that replacement birthdate, which is what the US would be without immigration. It would mean, at least, that the current social security system becomes untenable. It would also mean that the amount of time an incontinent elderly person spends lying in their own filth is longer than it would be with non-zero immigration - purely based on the makeup of age cohorts in the US. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/33 "2019-10-02T19:07:55Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > And spending, what, 2.5% of our GDP on our own countrymen and women is somehow even comparable to the billions and billions it costs the taxpayer to fund illegal aliens? Well, it would be easier to compare if you hadn’t deliberately changed the way you were referring to the monetary amounts to make the 693 billion spent on the military sound SO MUCH MORE than the 0.3% of the GDP it costs to fund immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/34 "2019-10-02T19:17:48Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > We hemorrhage money left right and center and the absolute LAST people we should be funding are illegal aliens at the expense of taxpayers. There is not a sound argument that can be made for it. The absolute LAST people we should be funding are the rich fuckers who’ve somehow taken control of our country. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/35 "2019-10-02T19:41:33Z")
> [@](#): > > The point is that it’s billions and billions and billions of wasted treasure that should be spent on citizens, not illegal aliens. It’s absurd. You sound very annoyed. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/36 "2019-10-02T19:43:21Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > No, 60 billion is AFTER taking out illegal aliens social security contributions and paid taxes (which are likely being withheld because of a fake or stolen social security card/number). Even if they taxes you’re referring to are attached to stolen ID numbers, those illegal aliens are not getting the money back. Meanwhile, they pay sales tax just like you and I do, and when they buy fuel for their vehicles they pay those taxes, which help pay for our roads, and the pay rent and utilities and for food (but they _don’t_ get food stamps) all of which helps the economy where they are. So, sorry, I don’t buy your claim that these folks are costing us “billions and billions”. Yes, there is a cost and there are some problems but they are far, far from bankrupting this country. > [@](#): > > And spending, what, 2.5% of our GDP on our own countrymen and women is somehow even comparable to the billions and billions it costs the taxpayer to fund illegal aliens? Please provide a cite that dealing with illegal aliens costs even as much as 2.5% of our GDP. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/37 "2019-10-02T19:49:30Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > Every mainstream lefty right now chants about raising taxes on the “1%” and people paying their “fair share” Actually, I’ve been chanting that a few _decades_ now, it’s not a recent hobby of mine. But I’m not sure you could actually call me a “liberal”, I seem to piss them off just as much as I do the conservatives. Maybe I’m just contrary. > [@](#): > > There is literally nothing stopping you from taking your money and donating to the charity of your choice. Hell, you can even donate it to the IRS yourself if you like, but getting pissy because people want to keep their own heard earned wealth instead of paying for totally ineligible illegal aliens is why you’ll always have Republicans/opposition parties. Oh, my, your spelling is slipping… I have a question for you - if people such as yourself (whatever stripe of politics you label yourself with) are really so anti-immigrant or, if you prefer, anti-illegal immigrant, why are you not advocating that BUSINESS OWNERS who hire illegal aliens are not arrested alongside the illegal aliens? Aren’t those employers ALSO breaking the law? Indeed, doesn’t their hiring of illegal aliens encourage such law-breaking? Hmm… we could arrest the business owners, confiscate their money earned from criminal activity, and use it to pay for the cost of dealing with illegal immigration, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/38 "2019-10-02T19:52:38Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > Something that can be done is let people keep more of their own money, that they earned, that’s theirs, so they can buy food. Rent. Therapists. > [@Kobal2](#): > > You do realize that’s merely another way to say “fuck the poor”, yes ? I have my doubts that he is aware enough to realize that’s what he’s saying. > [@Isosleepy](#): > > Immigration is a net benefit to countries. By regulating immigration you can enhance the benefit further - allow the healthy, educated, strong, smart, attractive in, for example. While there are some ethical concerns about those types of distinctions, at least it makes sense on some level. Just eliminating immigration is just stupid. We can see how things go for countries with a lower that replacement birthdate, which is what the US would be without immigration. It would mean, at least, that the current social security system becomes untenable. It would also mean that the amount of time an incontinent elderly person spends lying in their own filth is longer than it would be with non-zero immigration - purely based on the makeup of age cohorts in the US. Unfortunately, there is a cohort of people in the US who see those consequences as a feature and not a bug. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/39 "2019-10-02T20:08:12Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > … > You first, bud. If you’re gonna claim something so preposterous, you should start first. > > And it better not be vox or buzzfeed or any other hard left rag. Sorry, it was your claim, not mine. You claimed that we’re net spending billions and billions on undocumented immigrants. This isn’t what I’ve heard, but if you have a cite to that effect (not from some “hard right rag”), I’d be happy to read it. Please include the relevant section in your post, if you don’t mind. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/40 "2019-10-02T20:14:55Z")
Well, [NBC](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/fact-check-how-much-does-illegal-immigration-cost-america-not-n950981) (from the Heritage group) has it at about $54 billion, which seems on the high end, though they concede that it’s really difficult if not impossible to nail down a real figure. Certainly, Trump’s $250 billion doesn’t seem to hold much water. I’m assuming NBC (and even the Heritage Group, though perhaps not as much) doesn’t qualify as a ‘hard right rag’. > [@](#): > > Rector said his 2013 estimate pegged the cost of undocumented immigrants — the cost of services received minus their tax contributions — was about $54 billion a year. > > A precise cost is nearly impossible to ascertain, many experts said. That’s in part because undocumented immigrants operate within the shadows, leaving their full fiscal contributions — and use of taxpayer-funded resources — at least somewhat unknown. > > “It’s really hard to calculate anyone’s ‘net cost’ or ‘net benefit.’ We all use all kinds of services, from roads to military protection. How do we apportion what part of that is something I or you or an immigrant use?” said Kallick. > > Overall, there is a broad misunderstanding of how much undocumented immigrants contribute to America’s balance sheets, and what taxpayer-funded benefits they receive, the experts interviewed by NBC News said. > > “Undocumented immigrants are incredible contributors to our economy and are not eligible for public benefits that people think they come here for,” Wiehe said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133.md?page=3)