# "Shooting migrants in the legs". Is this legal? If Area 51 trespassers can be shot... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2019, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133 "2019-10-02T02:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/41 "2019-10-02T20:18:41Z")
As for the OP: > [@SamuelA](#): > > So, Trump has expressed a desire, per CNN, to have illegal immigrants [shot](https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/01/politics/new-york-times-trump-shoot-migrants-legs/index.html). > > This would be an inhumane, despicable act. And it doesn’t address the root cause of illegal immigration. (though, in reality, it might be an effective deterrent) > > So my first thought is “no, this would be a violation of international law and a failure to use proportional force”. > > But, then again, trespassers at the Area 51 base can legally be shot for entering a restricted area. The border fencing is Federal property and this is an international border. Could the Feds declare a military controlled zone up and down the border, post signs in multiple languages warning that lethal force is authorized, and fire on anyone that crosses? > > Could the President make an executive order authorizing this? Is it within his powers? > > If the answer is no, why can the military shoot unarmed area 51 trespassers to prevent them from seeing what’s there? What precisely authorizes this? Focusing just on the shoot on site on Area 51 part, I’d ask the question…well, how many people have actually BEEN shot trying to get onto the Area 51 (Grooms Lake) facility in, oh, say the past 40 years? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? A quick Google search indicates a lot of arrests, but I haven’t found any cases of folks actually being shot. MAYBE there have been a few, but I can’t find them. Not even 10’s of folks shot, despite hundreds of arrests. So, the premise seems flawed just from that angle. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/42 "2019-10-02T20:53:57Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, [NBC](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/fact-check-how-much-does-illegal-immigration-cost-america-not-n950981) (from the Heritage group) has it at about $54 billion, which seems on the high end, though they concede that it’s really difficult if not impossible to nail down a real figure. Certainly, Trump’s $250 billion doesn’t seem to hold much water. I’m assuming NBC (and even the Heritage Group, though perhaps not as much) doesn’t qualify as a ‘hard right rag’. That report, assuming it’s the one referenced below, has been pretty roundly criticized: > [@](#): > > In 2013, Robert Rector and Jason Richwine of The Heritage Foundation released a study concluding that as of 2010, the “average unlawful immigrant household” had a net deficit (benefits received minus taxes paid) of $14,387 per household.[47] Critics of the Rector-Richwine report “questioned several assumptions made by the report’s authors—everything from the amount that legalization could boost earnings for immigrants to the amount of welfare they may use.”[48] The Heritage report purported to project costs over a 50-year period and assumed no changes to Social Security or Medicare, which prompted criticism that the study was overly speculative.[48] The report also counted “the cost of benefits paid to the children of those living in the U.S. illegally, even though many of those children by law are citizens.”[48] The methodology and conclusions of the 2013 Heritage Foundation study were sharply criticized as flawed by, among others, Alex Nowrasteh of the Cato Institute, Doug Holtz-Eakin of the American Action Forum, and Tim Kane at the Hudson Institute. Nowrasteh wrote that the Heritage report’s refusal to account for GDP growth and increased economic productivity from immigration led to “a massive underestimation of the economic benefits of immigration and diminishing estimated tax revenue.”[49] Republican Senator Marco Rubio of Florida also criticized the report From here: [Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States) Also, the Heritage Foundation is definitely a hard right rag – among other awful positions, they are climate change deniers. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/43 "2019-10-02T20:59:18Z")
That’s fine. It was the only one I saw an actual figure put on. The point was just showing that even that is a lot less than Trump’s assertion. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/44 "2019-10-02T21:00:15Z")
> [@XT](#): > > As for the OP: > > Focusing just on the shoot on site on Area 51 part, I’d ask the question…well, how many people have actually BEEN shot trying to get onto the Area 51 (Grooms Lake) facility in, oh, say the past 40 years? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? A quick Google search indicates a lot of arrests, but I haven’t found any cases of folks actually being shot. MAYBE there have been a few, but I can’t find them. Not even 10’s of folks shot, despite hundreds of arrests. So, the premise seems flawed just from that angle. According to some admittedly less reputable sources, an unnamed man was shot at Area 51 in January 2019 after driving through a security checkpoint and exciting his vehicle with a cylindrical object in his hand. > **['Storm Area 51' Event: Man Previously Shot Dead for Trying to Enter Military...](https://popculture.com/trending/amp/news/storm-area-51-event-man-previously-shot-dead-trying-enter-military-base/)** > > The more than 1 million people jokingly planning to raid Area 51 may want to heed the warning from \[...\] ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/45 "2019-10-02T21:04:41Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > You sound very annoyed. Also, his reference to “treasure” was _hilarious!_ What, are we pirates now? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/46 "2019-10-02T21:19:36Z")
> [@XT](#): > > That’s fine. It was the only one I saw an actual figure put on. The point was just showing that even that is a lot less than Trump’s assertion. OK, thanks! Maybe **Annoyed** has a better cite in mind since he or she seems to be pretty confident of the billions and billions number. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/47 "2019-10-02T21:22:28Z")
Rhetorical question: Are you holding your breath? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/48 "2019-10-02T21:28:00Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > OK, thanks! > > Maybe **Annoyed** has a better cite in mind since he or she seems to be pretty confident of the billions and billions number. Well, “billions and billions” just means “at least four billion”, which isn’t all _that_ outrageous a claim. Sure, the phrasing was intended to make the number sound YUGE, which was consistent with the rest of his bullshit phrasing as he tried to pretend that immigrants somehow cost more than the military. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/49 "2019-10-02T21:32:49Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Well, “billions and billions” just means “at least four billion”, which isn’t all _that_ outrageous a claim. > > Sure, the phrasing was intended to make the number sound YUGE, which was consistent with the rest of his bullshit phrasing as he tried to pretend that immigrants somehow cost more than the military. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a net positive for the US, as there are a hell of a lot of things that factor in to this. Illegal aliens, after all, buy stuff…and a lot of things bought in the US are taxed. In addition, often illegals actually DO pay payroll taxes, as they either use someone else’s credentials or something similar, paying into things like social security despite not really getting the benefits. Sure, they also use social services, so I wouldn’t be surprised, on the other hand, if it WAS billions…as in several billions, maybe even a few 10’s of billions. But it’s not going to be $250 billion, not unless you are seriously cherry picking your data and spinning like crazy. I’d say the very fact that it’s hard to nail down is a good indication it’s not a serious issue that is draining the treasury. Hell, we spend more on NASA per year, and that’s a very small fraction of our overall budget. This isn’t what’s causing the large deficits, and it’s not taking away valuable services from native born citizens. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/50 "2019-10-02T22:22:16Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Rhetorical question: Are you holding your breath? :):p:o:( Turning blue here. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/51 "2019-10-02T23:14:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I have a question for you - if people such as yourself (whatever stripe of politics you label yourself with) are really so anti-immigrant or, if you prefer, anti-illegal immigrant, why are you not advocating that BUSINESS OWNERS who hire illegal aliens are not arrested alongside the illegal aliens? Aren’t those employers ALSO breaking the law? Indeed, doesn’t their hiring of illegal aliens encourage such law-breaking? Hmm… we could arrest the business owners, confiscate their money earned from criminal activity, and use it to pay for the cost of dealing with illegal immigration, yes? Go for it, lock 'em up too if they knowingly hire illegal immigrants. If they weren’t employing these people, they’d probably prefer to stay home because who wants to travel thousands of miles to end up no better off? ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/52 "2019-10-03T02:10:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Also, his reference to “treasure” was _hilarious!_ What, are we pirates now? Treasure in that particular sense is not uncommon usage, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/53 "2019-10-03T02:39:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Right - you aren’t trying to help citizens with better healthcare or schools. It’s just another reason why conservatives want to cut taxes and services to everyone. If the weather is good, cut taxes and services. If it is bad, cut taxes and services. Too many immigrants, cut taxes and services. No immigrants, cut taxes and services. > > By the way, I googled it: shoplifting costs the economy $50 billion a year. Meanwhile, illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they consume in benefits. You know who doesn’t pay more in taxes than they consume in benefits? Red states. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/54 "2019-10-03T02:42:16Z")
Even still, I do not support shooting them. Not even a little. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/55 "2019-10-03T02:49:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You know who doesn’t pay more in taxes than they consume in benefits? Red states. Red states still have a lot of blue inhabitants. Plus I thought the so-called blues enjoyed wealth redistribution. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/56 "2019-10-03T03:01:19Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a net positive for the US, as there are a hell of a lot of things that factor in to this. Illegal aliens, after all, buy stuff…and a lot of things bought in the US are taxed. In addition, often illegals actually DO pay payroll taxes, as they either use someone else’s credentials or something similar, paying into things like social security despite not really getting the benefits. Sure, they also use social services, so I wouldn’t be surprised, on the other hand, if it WAS billions…as in several billions, maybe even a few 10’s of billions. But it’s not going to be $250 billion, not unless you are seriously cherry picking your data and spinning like crazy. > > I’d say the very fact that it’s hard to nail down is a good indication it’s not a serious issue that is draining the treasury. Hell, we spend more on NASA per year, and that’s a very small fraction of our overall budget. This isn’t what’s causing the large deficits, and **it’s not taking away valuable services from native born citizens.** Most of your argument I agree with. The bolded part is only technically true and is missing major elements. Primarily, illegal immigrants are competing for unskilled and semi-skilled jobs. Part of the reason they have to compete only in that pool is they can’t get licenses and official credentials, but that is a digression. For those Americans seeking work in that labor market, illegal immigrants greatly harm their hourly wage and employ-ability. We wouldn’t necessarily need minimum wage laws if there were not 7.6 million illegal workers giving employers an effectively bottomless pool of replacement workers for most unskilled and semi-skilled positions! “well, Americans who can’t do anything else but drudge work don’t _deserve_ anything more”. Debatable, but one of the bugs in the system is you need money to _become_ a skilled worker. The best (in terms of job prospects later and average pay) training costs a small fortune (100k+ tab for state school generally). Even heavily subsidized community college trade schools are not free, you have to cough up several thousand dollars in fees generally, and also somehow pay for food and rent during that time period. This is extremely difficult to do if you can’t even get a minimum wage job washing dishes because an illegal immigrant is willing to wash more dishes for less money. So Trump ran on a platform of opposing illegal immigrants. And he received massive support for poorly educated white men - specifically a group harmed by illegal immigration. Now, yes, shooting them is counterproductive and it doesn’t do anything about the 7.2 million still competing in the labor pool. The actual fix would be to make it a felony to _employ_ a worker without submitting their documents to be verified. Point all those guns at the actual villains. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/57 "2019-10-03T03:10:04Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Red states still have a lot of blue inhabitants. Plus I thought the so-called blues enjoyed wealth redistribution. Way to miss the point. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/58 "2019-10-03T03:14:33Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > … > > Now, yes, shooting them is counterproductive and it doesn’t do anything about the 7.2 million still competing in the labor pool. … That’s glossing over the biggest reason not to shoot them by many magnitudes. They are _people_, for fuck’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/59 "2019-10-03T16:28:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Red states still have a lot of blue inhabitants. Plus I thought the so-called blues enjoyed wealth redistribution. Yep, and a lack of redistribution within the state is exactly why they rely on federal government funds. I thought red states didn’t like big government or federal spending? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133/60 "2019-10-03T16:30:55Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > That’s glossing over the biggest reason not to shoot them by many magnitudes. They are _people_, for fuck’s sake. You and I may agree, but to some, they’re not people - they’re illegals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-is-this-legal-if-area-51-trespassers-can-be-shot/841133.md?page=4)