# Shooting police who enter illegally **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362 "2013-08-15T22:43:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/41 "2013-08-16T18:30:07Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Most states have. Police, for example. Or emergency personnel like firemen or EMT’s. Teachers. Jurors and Judges. Postal Workers. Most states have the very thing you want. Contact your local attorney for more enumeration if you’re interested. Fortunately, or unfortunately, cops don’t carry guns where I live; so the idea is academic. However nobody on God’s green earth represents me, nor a wholly fictional ‘people’, in any way whatsoever. Each man is solely responsible for the actions he chooses which harms another. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/42 "2013-08-16T18:30:09Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I wasn’t even going to respond to this little gem of shitty logic, vast overreach and mind-numbing stupidity, but I’ve found in these kinds of threads that anything not refuted is simply repeated and assumed to be true. It shouldn’t need saying, but you are completely and utterly wrong. I’ll be reporting your post, just so you know, since this isn’t the pit, where I would happily reply in kind. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/43 "2013-08-16T18:30:58Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Wait a minute, who gets to decide if the invasion is illegal? It’s not about legality, it’s about whether or not I fear for my life. Whatever happened to “Come out with your hands up”? If you forcefully break into a person’s home unannounced, you’re courting danger. Cops would react the same as any normal person to that intrusion: by defending their family and self at all costs. If Rodney King had been armed, he would have been justified in shooting those cops who were beating him – as far as he knew – to death. If Kim Dotcom had been armed, he would have been justified in firing back at the military style SWAT team invading his home. Don’t treat my home and my family like an enemy battlefield and then get surprised when we defend ourselves. Cops are here to serve and protect the communities they live in, not destroy them with scorched earth military tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/44 "2013-08-16T18:33:58Z")
It’s not my prefered way to go about social change. I would love it if we could achieve more transparency and accountability in police departments all over the world. I would also love it if no one ever starved to death, and there was no war. We have been trying to hold police accountable for their incompetence and corruption for decades. We have achieved huge things, but others are getting worse. So no, I’d rather police officers weren’t getting shot at for being idiots. But, just like them, I wouldn’t necessarily shed a tear if their incompetence ends up costing them a little more than some vacation time. It’s already cost US many, many lives. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/45 "2013-08-16T18:39:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I disagree. There is a substantial number of cases where “mistakes were made” and nothing happens. Yes, it happens. But who should be dealing with these police mistakes, courts, prosecutors, civilian review boards, and civil attorneys, or some impatient guy with a gun? > [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t see self defense as extreme at all. I find it a bit odd that immediately after the sentence “they thought they saw a gun”, you raise the untouchableness of “self defense”. Self defense isn’t, and shouldn’t be, limitless. Allowing you to kill someone you know is a police officer simply because you think he may have made a mistake isn’t the best option at all. Much better, legally and common sense-ally, is to accede to their demands and sue the fuck out of them later. > [@Magiver](#): > > well now we’re in the same arena of mistakes. The difference is that a person at home should have the reasonable expectation of defending that space. The person charged with responsibility of breaching the law in this discussion are the police and they should be held liable for the outcome of a false arrest. Yes, they should be held liable. That liability shouldn’t be a death sentence. I’m horribly sorry that the police got the wrong address, and the should pay for that mistake, but that payment shouldn’t be allowing you to kill them. Sorry. > [@Magiver](#): > > The law should allow for the lawful defense of one’s home against anyone illegally attempting to enter it by force. A badge shouldn’t hold any legal status above the law. At this point you’re arguing Castle Laws and you are free to disagree with them as a POV. I don’t have a problem with Castle Laws unless you’re using them to defend shooting police officers who are doing their job. Let’s make sure we keep our eyes on what we are discussing. > [@Magiver](#): > > that would take laws providing for such actions. As it stands now courts overwhelmingly support the actions of police. AFAIK if there isn’t a warrant then everything bad that happens should focus back on those responsible for authorizing the action. Just as if a driver involved in a bank robbery is responsible for anyone injured or killed in the crime. You continue to miss the difference between “holding accountable” and “killing”. We both agree the police should be held accountable for their actions. But only you advocate being the one to make that decision and allowing you to kill them. Me, I think the accountability should after a proper analysis, not as an immediate and deadly reaction to anti-police sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/46 "2013-08-16T18:41:25Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I’ll be reporting your post, just so you know, since this isn’t the pit, where I would happily reply in kind. Feel free, but know I was responding to your post, not you personally. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/47 "2013-08-16T18:43:42Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It’s not about legality, it’s about whether or not I fear for my life. And, again, this law isn’t about when a person acts in legitimate self defense when they don’t know the people breaking in are police officers. It’s about those cases where the person knows the guys he wants to shoot are police officers, but thinks they shouldn’t have been able to. I want that decision to be made after reasoned analysis in a court of law, rather than with a lot of anger and guns. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/48 "2013-08-16T18:47:46Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Yes, it happens. But who should be dealing with these police mistakes, courts, prosecutors, civilian review boards, and civil attorneys, or some impatient guy with a gun? Ideally not the impatient guy with the gun (which often times, ironically, could be said to describe the police in these situations). But when the courts, prosecutors, civilian review boards (ha! Like they have the power to do anything), etc, etc. aren’t accomplishing ANYTHING, and people are DYING. What else can we do? Cops and their departments and their leadership STILL go into full cover my ass mode. I mean, when you have them saying shit like: “But he looked at us _menacingly_” Or “When we pointed guns at him and yelled at him to exit the car (his own car in his own driveway) with his hands up, he did it TOO quickly! So we HAD to try and pump him full of lead for our own safety! We swears!” Jeebus, the excuses the bastards will pull out would make a 12 year old trying to get out of doing homework blush! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/49 "2013-08-16T18:48:55Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > If the police make a mistake, you should be allowed to kill them? That strikes me as a bit extreme. If you mistakenly charged into the police station with a gun drawn, what do you think would happen to you? If you don’t want to get shot, don’t act in a manner indistinguishable from a violent criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/50 "2013-08-16T18:56:34Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If you mistakenly charged into the police station with a gun drawn, what do you think would happen to you? If you don’t want to get shot, don’t act in a manner indistinguishable from a violent criminal. Oddly enough, the police don’t want to get shot by mistake, which is why they get warrants, wear their jackets saying police, and shout loudly and numerous times, POLICE!!! when they enter the house. And, again, “this law isn’t about when a person acts in legitimate self defense when they don’t know the people breaking in are police officers. It’s about those cases where the person knows the guys he wants to shoot are police officers, but thinks they shouldn’t have been able to.” ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/51 "2013-08-16T19:05:58Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > And, again, this law isn’t about when a person acts in legitimate self defense when they don’t know the people breaking in are police officers. It’s about those cases where the person knows the guys he wants to shoot are police officers, but thinks they shouldn’t have been able to. I want that decision to be made after reasoned analysis in a court of law, rather than with a lot of anger and guns. It doesn’t even have anything to do with whether they are police officers or not. Do I fear for my life? Then I will protect it. That’s not anyone else’s call to make. The fact of the matter is that police kill people, wrongfully, all the time. If someone says “We are the police, drop your weapon and put your hands up!”, that’s what I’ll do. If a guy in body armor and a mask kicks down my door and shoots my dog, I’m firing back no matter what his uniform says. So it’s on the police – the people invading my home with military weapons, tactics, and armor – to make damn sure I don’t feel like my life or my family’s is threatened. Step one might be to cut back on all the military, flash bang, door kicking down bullshit and treat people – suspected criminals or no – like equal members of their own community. Bottom line is that it is NOT acceptable to shoot someone because you fear you might be apprehended and incarcerated, wrongfully or not. But if you feel like your life is threatened, then YES, you have every right to fight or shoot back, whether they are police or not, and whether they have a warrant or not. Those facts are simply irrelevant by that point. The polices’ job should be to prevent that point from occurring, not _starting off_ with life-threatening intentions. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/52 "2013-08-16T19:15:00Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It doesn’t even have anything to do with whether they are police officers or not. > > Do I fear for my life? Then I will protect it. That’s not anyone else’s call to make. Yep, if you want to shoot people, that’s up to you. The repercussions of that decision, however, can involve the justice system, and many other “anyone else’s” will decide your fate. > [@Dr.Cube](#): > > The fact of the matter is that police kill people, wrongfully, all the time. If someone says “We are the police, drop your weapon and put your hands up!”, that’s what I’ll do. If a guy in body armor and a mask kicks down my door and shoots my dog, I’m firing back no matter what his uniform says. Best of luck with that. I’m sure it will work out fine for you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/53 "2013-08-16T19:26:07Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Oddly enough, the police don’t want to get shot by mistake, which is why they get warrants, wear their jackets saying police, and shout loudly and numerous times, POLICE!!! when they enter the house. And, again, “this law isn’t about when a person acts in legitimate self defense when they don’t know the people breaking in are police officers. It’s about those cases where the person knows the guys he wants to shoot are police officers, but thinks they shouldn’t have been able to.” The title of the thread is “shooting police who enter illegally”. The key word is “illegally”. No means no if entry is asked for without a warrant. Shouting “police” doesn’t mean squat if entry is illegal. It’s still a forced entry without cause. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/54 "2013-08-16T19:35:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The title of the thread is “shooting police who enter illegally”. The key word is “illegally”. And “illegally” can mean “by mistake”, “intentionally with intent to rape, pillage, and kill”, and everything in between. My point is that the determination of those instances should be left to the courts in reasoned analysis and not in the heat of fear, anger, and guns. > [@Magiver](#): > > No means no if entry is asked for without a warrant. Shouting “police” doesn’t mean squat if entry is illegal. It’s still a forced entry without cause. And, for the 83rd time, the solution should be found in the courts, with juries, judges, rules of evidence, and all the protections of the criminal and civil justice systems, and not by a bunch of scared, pissed off people with guns. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/55 "2013-08-16T19:38:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If you mistakenly charged into the police station with a gun drawn, what do you think would happen to you? If you don’t want to get shot, don’t act in a manner indistinguishable from a violent criminal. In other words, don’t be a black person or a dog, since those are favorite targets of police shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/56 "2013-08-16T20:04:14Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > And “illegally” can mean “by mistake”, “intentionally with intent to rape, pillage, and kill”, and everything in between. My point is that the determination of those instances should be left to the courts in reasoned analysis and not in the heat of fear, anger, and guns. And, for the 83rd time, the solution should be found in the courts, with juries, judges, rules of evidence, and all the protections of the criminal and civil justice systems, and not by a bunch of scared, pissed off people with guns. By that logic they can rape and pillage and the person should leave it up to the courts after the fact. A badge does not entitle one to commit a crime whether it’s a mistake or not. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/57 "2013-08-16T20:11:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > By that logic they can rape and pillage and the person should leave it up to the courts after the fact. Yes. If the police enter your house to rape, pillage, and kill you, and instead of killing them, you acquiesce to their perceived authority, you’re in trouble. The only problem is that, here in the US, that tends to be unbelievably and incredibly rare, dare I say all but unheard of, whereas the instances of police officers serving warrants is much, much more common. When writing a law to decide these kinds of issues, I fully support the law that saves lives in the 99.9999% of instances rather than the one that happens in .000001% (if ever) of the time. > [@Magiver](#): > > A badge does not entitle one to commit a crime whether it’s a mistake or not. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. This is factually incorrect. If a police officer accidentally executes a search warrant on the wrong house, he/she does not have the intent to commit a crime or an offense, and, lacking that criminal intent, is likely not guilty of a crime. Said police officer would certainly be subject to civil judgments, discipline, potential loss of job, and other punishments, but I’d much prefer that to you killing him and the rest of the officers shooting you. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/58 "2013-08-16T20:18:02Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > And, for the 83rd time, the solution should be found in the courts, with juries, judges, rules of evidence, and all the protections of the criminal and civil justice systems, and not by a bunch of scared, pissed off people with guns. People kill in self defense all the time. Then they go to court and get acquitted of any crime by a jury. See Zimmerman v. Martin. “Sorry, they killed you by mistake” is no consolation to an innocent corpse. I’d rather rot in jail for the rest of my life than watch my family get murdered by someone who may have been a cold blooded killer, but who may also have just been an incompetent government thug. In the heat of the moment, when I fear for my life, those distinctions are unimportant. The way you prevent self-defense killings is to avoid threatening people’s lives in the first place. Cops are not soldiers. The goal is arrest and trial, not dead suspects, no matter how horrible the crime that was allegedly committed. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/59 "2013-08-16T20:45:42Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > People kill in self defense all the time. Then they go to court and get acquitted of any crime by a jury. See Zimmerman v. Martin. If you want to be the next Zimmerman, be my guest. > [@DrCube](#): > > “Sorry, they killed you by mistake” is no consolation to an innocent corpse. I’d rather rot in jail for the rest of my life than watch my family get murdered by someone who may have been a cold blooded killer, but who may also have just been an incompetent government thug. In the heat of the moment, when I fear for my life, those distinctions are unimportant. Which, FOR THE 85TH TIME, is why we don’t want decisions that cause people’s lives to be made “in the heat of the moment”. If you hear police officers shouting “POLICE!!! SEARCH WARRANT!!!”, and you see them wearing their uniforms with glow in the dark POLICE written on them, don’t shoot them. I know it’s really scary, and you already think that they’re thugs, but I, and the law, would prefer to have everyone’s lives saved and avoid situations where you shoot a police officer. As always, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362/60 "2013-08-16T20:48:39Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Yes. If the police enter your house to rape, pillage, and kill you, and instead of killing them, you acquiesce to their perceived authority, you’re in trouble. The only problem is that, here in the US, that tends to be unbelievably and incredibly rare, dare I say all but unheard of, whereas the instances of police officers serving warrants is much, much more common. The pillage and kill parts aren’t rare at all. Police steal things all the time using drug forfeiture laws as an excuse. And people (and dogs, they like killing dogs) being shot & killed by the cops for no good reason are on the news on a regular basis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shooting-police-who-enter-illegally/666362.md?page=4)