Shooting police who enter illegally

We’re talking past each other, man.

Of course, I’m not advocating murder. If they are cops, say so, and act as such, they’re safe.

My point is that military-style, door-kicking-in, SWAT team home invasions are all too frequent these days.

Back in the day, they’d knock on the door and say “Ma’am, we have a warrant to search the premises, and for your son’s arrest.” THEN, if Ma Barker yells “You’ll never take us alive, copper!” and pulls out the Tommy gun, you grab your big guns and charge.

Or else maybe she says, “I think you have the wrong house,” so you check and by god, you do! Or she begrudgingly lets you in and you realize your own mistake. Whatever. There are a lot of safe ways that could pan out. The only time it was a battle is when the perpetrators made it one.

Now, on the other hand, all too often they go in guns-a-blazing, without so much as a knock, killing pets and dressed in armored space suits. There is no room for error in a situation like that. I cannot fault someone for fighting back against that kind of deadly maelstrom raining down on their own home. Especially if they are innocent, and it’s the COPS who fucked up.

The way to fix this, so innocent people and innocent officers aren’t killed, is for the good guys (ostensibly the police) to avoid starting the battle in the first place. Be prepared, by all means, for the suspect to initiate violence, but don’t start it yourself.

When people feel their lives are threatened, they defend themselves with deadly force. So to avoid being killed by someone in self defense, common sense says don’t threaten their life. I don’t see why this is so hard.

I am so sorry, but if I am sitting peacefully at home and doing nothing unlawful and someone blasts my door down without any little knock and Police, Open Up! they are getting a shotgun to the head. Part of being a police officer serving a warrant IS properly identifying themselves and passing over the copy of the warrant. Storm trooper invading is not a part of peacefully serving a warrant.

Criminals burst in with no notification. You want in, you knock on my door and identify yourself and have the proper paperwork.

I never pull over for a cop on the side of the road, I will take the next exit and go to a well lit gas station. I do this for two reasons.

  1. It might not be a cop, it might be some asshole up to no good.

  2. It might be a cop up to no good.

Just did a little research on no-knock warrants and now I just want to go crawl into a hole and hide for a while. You have good luck with that shotgun of yours.

My aren’t you masculine. No mention of being afraid for your life, no mention of protecting yourself. No mention of self defense at all. All about making those officers pay for their mistakes, preferably with their brains splattered on the wall.

As I have mentioned previously, as a disabled FEMALE, I have no expectation of escape or evasion in case of a home invasion. Therefore, anybody bursts in with force will be met with force. I am not going to sit here in bed and get killed like those poor women in Cheshire [all of about 100 miles or a good solid 90 minute drive from where I am right now.]

I’m pretty sure that if you’re first reaction to a cop entering your home is to shoot him, you’re probably going to end up dead regardless.

This is basically I imagine what the law intends, this “No knock” warrant stuff is dangerous for police and citizens.

Even in Hudson v. Michigan, the SC had to decide if 3-5 seconds was enough time after announcing themselves to enter, they said it was a violation of no knock, but still upheld the ER.

Yeah, and funnily enough, that’s true when anyone illegally enters someone else’s home, whether criminal or cop. The only thing that a homeowner knows is that some asshole just kicked in his door, guns drawn and screaming at him.

And yet, the side that you’re defending is the side that is creating that fear and anger, and the side that initiated the gunplay. Why the hell is the onus for reasoned analysis shoved onto the person who is confronted by a bunch of armed thugs, rather than on the ones initiating the violence?

So, not by police breaking into people’s homes, eh?

It’s actually appalling that anyone would advocate shooting police for legitimate mistakes.

I’d rather prohibit no-knock and dynamic entry without exception. Combine that with curtailing the war on drugs and we’d be off to a good start. That would reduce the instances of mistakes by police dramatically. Also, 42 USC § 1983 suits should be much easier to bring and there should be no qualified immunity for police in carrying out their duty.

One problem of giving absolute deference to police is that criminals can pretend to be police and therefore easily gain entry. Eliminating dynamic entry and no-knock gives the resident time to validate the legitimacy of the police presence - generally a warrant. Dynamic entry and no-knock doesn’t separate the actions of the police from criminals sufficiently enough.

Indeed. The distinction is so fine as to be invisible, which I think is the whole point here.

It is not a legitimate mistake - it is a mistake that could not happen if not for their deliberate choice to act with a disregard for the danger to other people. It’s like when a cop shoots and kills an incapacitated prisoner, and claims they meant to use their taser. If the only reason you accidentally killed someone is because you were trying to torture them and fucked it up, that is not a legitimate mistake.

(bolding mine)

Very, well said.
‘Dynamic entry’ is just a euphemism for an unannounced and violently sudden entry.
And the ‘no-knock entry’ (as it is currently employed) is used entirely too often, with insufficient justification of its effectiveness or proven necessity, and shouldn’t even be allowed except in very extreme, ‘life critical’*, circumstances, IMHO.
IIRC, the justification for employing a ‘no-knock entry’ that is used most often is, “to prevent evidence from being destroyed”. (No cite, so please correct me if I’m mistaken.)
Given the choice between, a possible deadly situation due to armed resistance and the possible loss of evidence, it would seem to be a ‘no-brainer’.
Knock loudly and announce loudly that you are the police and you are coming in if the door is not opened in 20-30 seconds. Granted, that may give criminals time to dispose of illegal items (read drugs, and really, just how much do you think can be ‘disposed of’ in 30 seconds?) but it would give an innocent homeowner time to realize that it is, in fact, the LAW that’s about to come in their home, whether they like it or not. If they’re innocent, that can be argued later, in a court of law, by living, breathing, people.
I agree with Magiver and DrCube on the point of, “if you break into my home, violently and without making it obvious, beforehand, that you are the ‘LAW’, you risk meeting the wrong end of my gun”.

*life critical = The bad guys might/will injure/kill an innocent person, if they’re given advance warning of entry by LEOs.

I think there’s a lot of talking past each other in this thread. There seem to be several versions of “If someone kicks in my door, with guns drawn, they’re taking their own chances. How am I supposed to know they’re not criminals intent on doing me harm?”

But that’s never been illegal, I don’t think. If you could not reasonably have known they were cops, and a reasonable person would have thought themselves in fear for their lives, then killing the policeman is a tragedy but not a crime, right?

This law is something different–you know they are cops, you believe they have entered your home illegally, so you get to shoot them. Is everyone getting that? (I know some people are.)

So, while I agree with Hamlet as to why this is an idiotic law, I’d add something even more fundamental: How exactly does a homeowner determine it’s an illegal entry? There are no-knock warrants, for example. Someone explain to me how you could tell on sight that this was an illegal entry. Maybe I’m missing some obvious example (and I’m not interested in some bizarre hypothetical that has virtually no chance of actually occurring.)

Cops crash through your front door. You know they are cops. How do you know that was illegal?

Is it that hard to ask that people not go randomly shooting people that bust through their door before they identify them as police or not?

If someone/ some group bust through your door, there is nothing random about responding with equal force.

Is it that hard to ask that paramilitary thugs not bust down doors and randomly shoot pets/ terrorize residents, rather than serve suspects who are presumed innocent with legal documents in a manner approaching the relative level of civility and decorum these same thugs expect said residents to display when their doors have been summarily busted inward?

I may be incorrect, but as I read this law, if the police do the latter, and you think the warrant is invalid, you still have the legal right to shoot the cops. Am I reading that right?

Yes. When armed criminals bust through your door, you’re a damn idiot if you think you should wait until they say “No, we are not the police” before reacting with appropriate force.

Has there ever been a scenario where a criminal busts through someone’s door, yelling?

Yes. It’s called a home invasion robbery.