# Shootout with gunman kill baby **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986 "2005-07-11T13:27:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FaerieBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/1 "2005-07-11T13:27:05Z")
_sigh_ You evil fucker. [Link to story](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/11/la.shootout/index.html) Arrg! > [@](#): > > “He was using the baby as a shield,” Assistant Police Chief Jim McDonnell. What an absolute fucker. I don’t know what else to say. ---
**Author:** ![FaerieBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/2 "2005-07-11T13:29:46Z")
_sigh again_ That should say _kills_ in the title. I was worked up. A Mod could fix it if they so desired. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/3 "2005-07-11T13:50:38Z")
Oh NO! Something bad has happened somewhere in the world! I’m so outraged! Well, there’s my fix for the day. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/4 "2005-07-11T13:59:17Z")
That story reminds me a bit of Martin Sheen in “The Dead Zone”. (Remember?) Anyway, did the police accidentally, shoot the baby? I woud think that a baby would not provide 100% protection for an adult. Couldn’t the police shoot the guy’s legs a couple of dozen times? ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/5 "2005-07-11T14:00:46Z")
> [@Silentgoldfish](#): > > Oh NO! Something bad has happened somewhere in the world! I’m so outraged! > > Well, there’s my fix for the day. Yes! I also am outraged that something horrible has, again, happened on the same planet as I! What’s the next one? _Subject:_ The government has done something of which I disapprove! _Body:_\ “Random call for agreement!” Or maybe… _Subject:_ Someone has badly mistreated a child/animal! _Body:_\ “Random call for agreement!” _Subject:_ A criminal has killed someone in a particularly dastardly manner! _Body:_\ “Random call for agreement!” ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/6 "2005-07-11T14:00:58Z")
They currently don’t know if he killed the toddler or if the police did. Either way, a bad outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/7 "2005-07-11T14:04:08Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > Couldn’t the police shoot the guy’s legs a couple of dozen times? It’s not as easy as the movies make it seem. ---
**Author:** ![FaerieBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/8 "2005-07-11T14:10:44Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > Anyway, did the police accidentally, shoot the baby? I woud think that a baby would not provide 100% protection for an adult. Couldn’t the police shoot the guy’s legs a couple of dozen times? The link says the baby was 17 months old. That’s big enough to cover the torso, I’d think. The way I understand it, shooting the arms and legs of a suspect moving around is very difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/9 "2005-07-11T14:16:06Z")
> [@FaerieBeth](#): > > The way I understand it, shooting the arms and legs of a suspect moving around is very difficult. Yeah, even highly trained officers get an adrenalin rush going and it’s difficult to pick out a body part to shoot (it’s not the movies). Most training is geared to aiming at center of mass. ---
**Author:** ![FaerieBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/10 "2005-07-11T15:04:54Z")
> [@Hamadryad](#): > > Yes! I also am outraged that something horrible has, again, happened on the same planet as I! > What’s the next one? > _Subject:_ The government has done something of which I disapprove! > _Body:_\ > “Random call for agreement!” You know, you’re right. I sort of dashed that OP off without much text. I do wonder why the police couldn’t have done _anything_ else short of opening fire. The quote from the mother about her begging the police not to shoot and that they fired “300 shots” is dry tinder for another firestorm of public vs. police in Los Angeles. It looks to be one of those situations where nobody will ever be satisfied as to the necessity of what took place. Some people will most likely blame the police for the death of this child, but offer little suggestions on what they think should have been done with an armed, drug-freaking man who was shooting at the neighbors and the cops. Some people will blame the nutso father for using his own child as a shield. Some people will blame the mother for even having her child around someone she thought needed psychological help. Lots of blame to lay around. You got me on the outrage, though. I weep bitter tears for any innocent caught in the crossfire. Of any age. In any place. It was just a microcosmic picture of something that’s so wrong, but very little anyone can do to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/11 "2005-07-11T15:10:40Z")
> [@FaerieBeth](#): > > You got me on the outrage, though. I weep bitter tears for any innocent caught in the crossfire. Of any age. In any place. It’s a wonder you manage to get any work done! ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/12 "2005-07-11T15:23:28Z")
> [@FaerieBeth](#): > > _sigh_ You evil fucker. > [Link to story](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/11/la.shootout/index.html) > > Arrg! > > What an absolute fucker. > > I don’t know what else to say. Your link doesn’t work for me. Not that important since I can get the gist of it from the rest of the thread, but thought you may want to know. > [@Silentgoldfish](#): > > Oh NO! Something bad has happened somewhere in the world! I’m so outraged! > > Well, there’s my fix for the day. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Maendosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Maendosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maendosa)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/13 "2005-07-11T15:29:12Z")
> [@Silentgoldfish](#): > > It’s a wonder you manage to get any work done! _chortle_ ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/14 "2005-07-11T15:35:19Z")
But what about _MY_ fix for the day??!? Quick, someone make some stupid hyperbolic statement about something you’d like to do to the perpetrator (e.g., “I think we should skin his corpse and whip his flayed body with the pelt on national TV to discourage other criminals!!!”) so I can tell you how morally repugnant you are. ---
**Author:** ![Euthanasiast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Euthanasiast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euthanasiast)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/15 "2005-07-11T15:50:50Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > But what about _MY_ fix for the day??!? > > Quick, someone make some stupid hyperbolic statement about something you’d like to do to the perpetrator (e.g., “I think we should skin his corpse and whip his flayed body with the pelt on national TV to discourage other criminals!!!”) so I can tell you how morally repugnant you are. [Yeah, but you’d let your own child die rather than torture the kidnapper for information leading to the discovery of his/her location.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6327110&postcount=22) ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/16 "2005-07-11T15:51:42Z")
> [@FaerieBeth](#): > > The quote from the mother about her begging the police not to shoot and that they fired “300 shots” is dry tinder for another firestorm of public vs. police in Los Angeles. Bet that turns out to be bullshit. The actual quote from the mother: > [@](#): > > “I told them that he needed help, he needs a psychologist, but please don’t shoot. They didn’t understand, and the police fired like 300 shots.” She could have just as well have said, “The police fired like a million times at him!” Oh, yeah, I forgot, I have to add my own anguished hyperbole. “O, the Children!!!111one1!!! Won’t _someone_ think of the CHILDREN???!?!?!!!” ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/17 "2005-07-11T15:55:30Z")
> [@](#): > > It looks to be one of those situations where nobody will ever be satisfied as to the necessity of what took place. Some people will most likely blame the police for the death of this child, but offer little suggestions on what they think should have been done with an armed, drug-freaking man who was shooting at the neighbors and the cops. Some people will blame the nutso father for using his own child as a shield. Some people will blame the mother for even having her child around someone she thought needed psychological help. Lots of blame to lay around. Nope. The **only** blame to be assigned here is at the feet of the cops. At least judging by the facts displayed in the story. The story linked **does not say** say what you assert - that the armed, drug-freaking man was _shooting_ - at **anything** - until the cops showed up and he exchanged fire with them. The story says only that an “armed man [was] standing near an intersection with a toddler and behaving erratically and aggressively.” It does not say that **any** shots were fired until the cops showed up. 300 shots seems terribly excessive to me. (And I realize that is only a statement made by a witness,it isn’t an “official” count . . but still.) If the cops need that many shots to take down a lone gunman, they shouldn’t be shooting at all. Especially in a populated neighborhood, and **most especially** when it is known the target is holding a hostage of such an age. This is yet another example of what can happen when police forces are “over-militarized.” ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/18 "2005-07-11T15:55:56Z")
> [@Uvula Donor](#): > > The actual quote from the mother: > > > [@](#): > > > > “I told them that he needed help, he needs a psychologist, but please don’t shoot. They didn’t understand, and the police fired like 300 shots.” You’d have to get the psychologist moving pretty damn fast to make an effective impact, in that kind of situation. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/19 "2005-07-11T16:00:38Z")
I’m not so sure about that, Metacom. The CNN story says the standoff lasted 2 and a half hours. Plenty of time to get a negotiator & psychiatrist in place. Frankly, I’d be surprised if the L.A. cops don’t have one permanently assigned to the SWAT team. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/20 "2005-07-11T16:05:59Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > Anyway, did the police accidentally, shoot the baby? The baby was reaching for its cell phone. Easy mistake. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986.md?page=2)