# Shootout with gunman kill baby **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986 "2005-07-11T13:27:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/61 "2005-07-12T16:52:39Z")
Further, your recommendation would appear to be a “shoot first; ask questions later” solution. That doesn’t seem adviseable to me. ---
**Author:** ![masterchief243](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@masterchief243](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterchief243)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/62 "2005-07-12T17:07:38Z")
what about the 300 round thing? there’s no way around it on my part. i read earlier posting that said the last stand took place in a cramped office. that seems even more excessive to me. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/63 "2005-07-12T17:11:06Z")
Hmm, maybe I wasn’t clear enough. To put it another way, there is 0% chance that a dead guy can hurt anyone. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/64 "2005-07-12T17:12:56Z")
> [@masterchief243](#): > > what about the 300 round thing? there’s no way around it on my part. i read earlier posting that said the last stand took place in a cramped office. that seems even more excessive to me. 300 shots fired by groups of officers over 3 engagements is far from unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/65 "2005-07-12T17:13:43Z")
> [@masterchief243](#): > > what about the 300 round thing? there’s no way around it on my part. i read earlier posting that said the last stand took place in a cramped office. that seems even more excessive to me. The 300 round figure was likely an exaggeration; it was made by the mother of the slain child. However, the last story I linked from the L.A. Times includes an account from the cops of “dozens” of bullet holes in the interior walls of the building where the man was shot. It’s not clear who fired the shots making most of those holes, but yeah, that seems quite excessive to me, too. That story also says that a total of 11 police officers fired their weapons. Again, excessive. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/66 "2005-07-12T17:19:49Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Hmm, maybe I wasn’t clear enough. To put it another way, there is 0% chance that a dead guy can hurt anyone. Well. Thanks for stating the obvious; that was a quite valuable contribution to the discussion. > [@](#): > > 300 shots fired by groups of officers over 3 engagements is far from unreasonable. Yes, it is wholly unreasonable. Particularly in a hostage situation. 300 rounds sounds like uncontrolled fire; wild shooting at anything that presents itself as a target. And just plain random firing at the building the guy was holed up in, too, apparently. It’s ridiculous. Cops are primarily “peace officers,” but that seems to have been forgotten here. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/67 "2005-07-12T17:23:38Z")
It was to clear up _your_ confusion here. **UncleBeer** > [@](#): > > Once a hostage is taken, there is no way anyone can give a “100% assurance” that the hostage won’t be harmed. Get it now? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/68 "2005-07-12T17:28:20Z")
**UncleBeer** > [@](#): > > That story also says that a total of 11 police officers fired their weapons. Again, excessive. Yeah this drivel comes up a lot. 11 people are not of one mind. They can’t all instantly decide in the heat of combat who will shoot and who will not. And it usually comes down to personal survival. Shoot so hopefully you don’t die. And shoot a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/69 "2005-07-12T17:28:34Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Hmm, maybe I wasn’t clear enough. To put it another way, there is 0% chance that a dead guy can hurt anyone. Nor can a dead teenager screwing around with a cap gun. Having your policy be “shoot first, shoot always” ensures that you are going to kill people who either aren’t an immediate danger or can be reasoned with, plus by shooting you are putting everyone in the situation in danger. There’s no guarentee that you’ll get the hostage taker cleanly, or even get them at all. You’ll have escallated the situation without any pressing needed. SWAT teams and hostage negotiators have a lot of experience dealing with these situations. Many (most?) get talked out without a shot being fired. This is generally a good thing for everyone involved. While I have diminished sympathy for a hostage taker, it doesn’t go to zero. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/70 "2005-07-12T17:40:48Z")
The criminal in the situation chose that for themselves. The hostage did not choose to be victimized. When there is a chance that hostages may be killed, I’d rather not gamble with their lives. When given the go, a sniper will only take a sure, clean shot. If it never presents itself, no shot is taken. Don’t want to die at the hands of the law? Live a peaceful life like the rest of us. Otherwise we can do without you. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/71 "2005-07-12T18:31:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t want to die at the hands of the law? > Live a peaceful life like the rest of us. > Otherwise we can do without you. Excellent advice. Too bad Randy & Vicki Weaver weren’t allowed to follow it. > [@](#): > > When there is a chance that hostages may be killed, I’d rather not gamble with their lives. But yet you advocate cops directing gunfire towards the hostage. Remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/72 "2005-07-12T18:37:01Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Yes, it is wholly unreasonable. Particularly in a hostage situation. 300 rounds sounds like uncontrolled fire; wild shooting at anything that presents itself as a target. And just plain random firing at the building the guy was holed up in, too, apparently. It’s ridiculous. Sounds like it but consider this… 10 police officers with weapons drawn when he steps out of a doorway and shoots in their direction. Every one of them is probably going to return his fire. They will also fire more than once (IIRC most depts actually have policy guiding them to fire 2, 3, 4 whatever times if they are in a shoot situation.) 3 shots x 10 officers x 3 engagements = 90 shots That in itself may sound excessive but as has been mentioned many times details are lacking as to the exact situation time targets presented, at what range, with what kind of cover, so on, so forth. If the guy fired more than a couple times at once the number of shots fired by individual officers and the number of officers returning fire will quickly increase. We also don’t know if every time he engaged officers if the child was present on all occasions. > [@](#): > > Cops are primarily “peace officers,” but that seems to have been forgotten here. Containing and supression of hostile individuals is maintaining the peace. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/73 "2005-07-12T18:47:08Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Containing and supression of hostile individuals is maintaining the peace. If this is true, our children cannot afford peaceful lives. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/74 "2005-07-12T18:49:04Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Hmm, maybe I wasn’t clear enough. To put it another way, there is 0% chance that a dead guy can hurt anyone. Not neccesarily. Say a hostage taker has a gun to the hostage’s head, couldn’t shooting the perpetrator cause him to reflexively pull the trigger? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/75 "2005-07-12T19:05:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Excellent advice. Too bad Randy & Vicki Weaver weren’t allowed to follow it. How’d I know that would come up? **UncleBeer** > [@](#): > > But yet you advocate cops directing gunfire towards the hostage. Remarkable. No, not exactly. Only a surgical, precise shot by sniper. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/76 "2005-07-12T19:11:12Z")
**Blalron** > [@](#): > > Not neccesarily. Say a hostage taker has a gun to the hostage’s head, couldn’t shooting the perpetrator cause him to reflexively pull the trigger? Yes necessarily. What I’m talking about is a guy laying on the floor with his head empty. How can he possibly hurt anyone? And yes, you’re right he could reflexively pull the trigger. A sniper doesn’t shoot when there is that possibility. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/77 "2005-07-12T19:15:57Z")
**Fear Itself** > [@](#): > > If this is true, our children cannot afford peaceful lives. How would you suggest handling hostile individuals? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/78 "2005-07-12T19:21:21Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > How would you suggest handling hostile individuals? In this case, where the suspect is isolated in an office, withdraw, take cover and wait him out. No hostage negotiator I’ve ever heard of would advocate anything else. This was clearly a case of cops who couldn’t stand to take fire without returning it, no matter what the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/79 "2005-07-12T19:29:22Z")
Right. But that sure sounds like containing and suppressing to me. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/80 "2005-07-12T20:02:44Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > This was clearly a case of cops who couldn’t stand to take fire without returning it, no matter what the consequences. I _really_ don’t get this from the descriptions in the news. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986.md?page=5)