# Shootout with gunman kill baby **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986 "2005-07-11T13:27:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/101 "2005-07-14T03:27:23Z")
Surprise surprise [http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/13/toddler.shooting/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/13/toddler.shooting/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/102 "2005-07-14T14:39:07Z")
Wow, looking at the new facts from Reeder’s link: Pena fired 40 shots 11 Officers fired less than 90, not 300 Pena shot at the officers first Pena ended the phone call after only a half hour He must have had a bunch of clips to fire that much. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/103 "2005-07-14T16:12:45Z")
> [@](#): > > ## The cops killed her > > Surprise surprise Yeah, the cops just want to kill everybody. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/104 "2005-07-14T16:44:20Z")
Frank Drebin (Leslie Nielsen) after being suspended from the “Police Squad” in the “Naked Gun” "You know, Ed, I’m not a policeman anymore. The _next_ time I shoot someone I _could_ get arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/105 "2005-07-14T17:08:03Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > The cops killed her > > Surprise surprise > > [CNN.com - Coroner: Toddler killed by LAPD bullet - Jul 14, 2005](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/13/toddler.shooting/index.html) Yeah, they do tend to fire back when someone’s shooting at them. ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/106 "2005-07-14T17:17:13Z")
As sad as this is, I can’t help but think of the Fresno case where the cops were patiently waiting and 9 people ended up dead. They got shit on for that one too. Seems they just can’t win in some people’s minds, no matter what they do. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/107 "2005-07-14T19:56:30Z")
Or Columbine. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/108 "2005-07-14T21:31:50Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > He must have had a bunch of clips to fire that much. Perhaps only three _magazines_. 9mm cartridges are pretty small so a typical full size pistol has room for a magazine that holds 15 or so. There are extended magazines that hold that many rounds but it’s less likely he used one of these. What a slugfest. Everyone beating up on all the cops involved and each other for opinions. Yes, I think some of you are completely full of shit but no use in getting specific. I haven’t walked in the cops’ shoes so I won’t judge them so quickly. I do know that shooting under even mild stress is very difficult. I can’t imagine how difficult it must be while someone is shooting at me not to mention the hostage. I won’t say the cops did everything right but that doesn’t imply I think they did anything wrong. I think most of them did the best they could under circumstances that I am certain not a single one of you assholes on this board has ever faced. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/109 "2005-07-15T05:08:15Z")
**Padeye** My Internet connection was down for a few hours and I’m surprised no one has replied to your posting. Guess I will. Yeah I suppose I am one of the assholes that may have judged the police harshly before all the facts are in, even though I wasn’t there, haven’t walked a mile in their shoes, (insert cliche of your choice here). Here’s a thread I started over a year ago about a police officer who was off-duty at the time. He was in a park with his 2 kids and felt an unleashed dog presented a danger serious enough to him and his childen that the officer shot the dog to death. > **[Dog Shot To Death In New Hampshire park](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=249536)** > > This incident occurred on Sunday, March 28th. I thought I should put it in MPSIMS - after all, it’s not as if I’m taking a poll on this (hence it is not IMHO material). http://www.theunionleader.com/articles\_showa.html?article=35473 Basically, I’d... Know what eventually happened to the officer? Nothing. As I’ve said before, what if one of us “civilians” were to do the same? Would we get arrested? Probably. Would we lose our firearms permit? Probably. Would we have to make a court appearance? Probably. I think we can make all the accusations, second-guesses, Monday-morning quarterback analyses we want to but it won’t amount to a pisshole in a snowdrift. I’m judging WAY before all the facts are in but you know what I think will happen to the police that were in the shootout? Nothing. Just one other point. (A minor rant if you will). Where do the police come off thinking that non-police officers are “civilians”? As others have said, maybe this is part of the militarization mentality that police departments have undergone in recent years. Know something? They are not a special class different from the rest of us. Service men and women _are_ a special class. If you are a police officer, you have a rough idea that your job will involve working in the city or town that employs you. Military people? Wherever the Hell you are told to go. If a police officer is really upset with his job he can quit instantly, even to the point of telling the Mayor or The Chief of Police to go fuck themselves. I think this behavior would be seen in a _much_ harsher light in the military. Police complain their pay is low. Military pay is shit. I remember when John McCain was running for President, he mentioned it was disgraceful that military peole have to resort to food stamps in order to make ends meet. Well, I have a feeling I might get one or 2 responses to this posting but feel free to pounce. (If nothing else this was almost totally off-topic. Sorry) ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/110 "2005-07-15T06:38:15Z")
**wolf\_meister** > [@](#): > > I’m judging WAY before all the facts are in but you know what I think will happen to the police that were in the shootout? Nothing. Wassamatter? Too many speeding tickets? Smoke pot and hate that cops enforce it’s illegality? Persecution complex? I bet you honestly think the cop that fired the fatal shot doesn’t give a shit. That he won’t be haunted for the rest of his life(if he doesn’t end it prematurely). Just don’t call a cop if you get burglarized, or get in a car accident, or suspect someone has broken into the house. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986/111 "2005-07-15T12:57:48Z")
**wolf\_meister** , I’m not sure what you expect me to pounce on as I never mentioned one of the issues you brought up in your post. I don’t know what will happen to the cops and never said I did. If they acted according to department policy I would hope they aren’t punished for doing so but it will take an investigation to determine if there was any wrongdoing. I hope there is a proper investigation and that future training and policy will add lessons learned from this shooting. I’m not sure how the dog shooting is relavent to this topic. If you are trying to show a trend remember that anecdote, even plural != data. In any case you posted a link to an article about the dog owner suing the city not about the shooting itself other than the most basic facts. I’m astonished when there **isn’t** a lawsuit after a police shooting death so I consider this meaningless to any discussion. I don’t know if the rant about police equating themselves to the military was directed at me but on that topic I agree with you to a point. Police != military, we got it. However sworn peace officers are often treated differently than non police under some laws. I love a good fight but what I hate about these arguments is the assumed polarization. Many people probably assume that because I think the cops probably did the best they could under the circumstances that I was arguing they can do no wrong, far from it. I believe the police often have too much power, particularly after the so-called patriot act. Sometimes police do have too much power but much of it is warranted because of the situations we as a society put them in. I am not trying to straddle the middle ground either, that is just as much bullshit as either extreme. After 9/11 people who I thought were my friends (not SDMB) called me a traitor or far worse because I said that killing every man, woman and child in Afghanistan might not be a good idea. I try to understand the complexity of the situation and realize that there is often no simple, unambiguous answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shootout-with-gunman-kill-baby/311986.md?page=5)