# Shop class no no’s Shorts, long hair and giant prosthetic boobs?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 18, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773 "2022-09-18T21:00:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 27
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/521 "2022-10-06T17:36:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> Because the person in question was not Stephen Hanna. The name of the person actually depicted in the photo, and the name of the transgender teacher are in fact an element of confusion that has not been cleared up by the district or the media.
Is the depicted person Kayla Lemieux? We know the person is not Stephen Hanna, because the district said so.
If the depicted person IS KL, then this person is NOT a male shop teacher who mocking the real transgendered teacher.
If the person IS NOT KL, why didn’t the district clarify that, the same way they did with Mr. Hannah?
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> I had a gym teacher in school who was “beloved and effective”, and also a massive homophobe and transphobe.
Understand, this isn’t a random transphobe who is also liked. This is a transphobe who has publicly created a hostile working environment and brought international attention to the district, by openly mocking a fellow teacher in a way that can only be described as thoroughly despicable, AND undeniably illegal. The district then openly embraces this teacher, promising to protect them and validate their teaching.
Seriously?
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> Is your speculation that this is photo is of a transwoman who wears this every day as her regular attire?
It’s not MY speculation, it’s the open claim of every media account of this situation, with literally zero statements to the contrary from anyone involved, who have commented multiple times about various aspects of the thing.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2022, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/522 "2022-10-06T18:59:02Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> With the way gender is now, it is pretty much meaningless in terms of how an individual expresses their gender.
Nope.
I have known cismen who reduce being a woman to secondary sex traits, and who have a real love-hate relationship with these traits, and who wear such outfits _specifically to mock women_. That requires a really specific relationship to female gender.
I have not known transwomen who have that relationship to female gender. I suppose anything is possible, but that would be an exceptionally unusual relationship.
“I was assigned male at birth, and I identify as a woman, and I will wear an outfit designed to caricature women” is not the usual trans approach.
“I was assigned male at birth, and I identify as male, and I am attracted to women but kind of also hate women, so I’m going to wear a ludicrous exaggeration of femininity” is an unfortunately common cis approach.
(Edit: of course there might be a transwoman who wears such an outfit in a sincere expression of gender. I’ve just not encountered that approach before, and consider it much less likely).
---
### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/523 "2022-10-06T19:00:03Z")
I agree, as I often do, with the Hand.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/524 "2022-10-06T19:00:22Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> How is it that district chair Shuttleworth was quoted specifically as saying they are working to ensure this teacher’s safety and that the teacher is a beloved and effective shop teacher, when this teacher is actually just publicly mocking another teacher in a magnificently offensive and unprofessional manner?
Can you provide the specific quote? This situation is unusual enough, and words are being parsed carefully enough, that a paraphrase might be missing something important.
---
### Author:  [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2022, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/525 "2022-10-06T19:15:15Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> > [@k9bfriender](#):
> >
> > Because the person in question was not Stephen Hanna. The name of the person actually depicted in the photo, and the name of the transgender teacher are in fact an element of confusion that has not been cleared up by the district or the media.
>
> Is the depicted person Kayla Lemieux? We know the person is not Stephen Hanna, because the district said so.
>
> If the depicted person IS KL, then this person is NOT a male shop teacher who mocking the real transgendered teacher.
>
> If the person IS NOT KL, why didn’t the district clarify that, the same way they did with Mr. Hannah?
>
> > [@k9bfriender](#):
> >
> > I had a gym teacher in school who was “beloved and effective”, and also a massive homophobe and transphobe.
>
> Understand, this isn’t a random transphobe who is also liked. This is a transphobe who has publicly created a hostile working environment and brought international attention to the district, by openly mocking a fellow teacher in a way that can only be described as thoroughly despicable, AND undeniably illegal. The district then openly embraces this teacher, promising to protect them and validate their teaching.
>
> Seriously?
>
> > [@k9bfriender](#):
> >
> > Is your speculation that this is photo is of a transwoman who wears this every day as her regular attire?
>
> It’s not MY speculation, it’s the open claim of every media account of this situation, with literally zero statements to the contrary from anyone involved, who have commented multiple times about various aspects of the thing.
I’ve read multiple stories quoting anonymous sources that say that last year the shop teacher, who identified as male at the time, was reprimanded for “toxic masculinity” and transphobic comments. Granted, it comes from anonymous sources but it’s false to say that there have been “literally zero” statement to the contrary.
And this reporting is from right-wing sources, sources that somehow lost all their “concern” with students being exposed to big boobs once the idea that the big-boobed teacher was a troll was floated.
---
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2022, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/526 "2022-10-06T19:35:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> Can you provide the specific quote?
Here’s a few from this [link… warning it’s the Sun, shade your eyes and take with salt](https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-halton-school-board-prepares-for-backlash-over-trans-high-school-teacher)
> [@](#):
>
> “This teacher (who teaches shop) is an extremely effective teacher,” said Shuttleworth. “All the kids really love being in the class.”
>
> She said her position to HDSB Director of Education Curtis Ennis is to “make sure she (the teacher) is protected” and “ensure that everybody remains safe.”
>
> “We have had no phone calls prior to this, saying anything about it,” said Shuttleworth.
>
> But having said that, Shuttleworth acknowledges “there had to be some disconnect because one of the students created this video.”
>
> Shuttleworth said the employee will be supported, adding “the teacher is completely accepted and welcomed into the school community as far as the staff is concerned.”
Now, it’s possible that the Sun is completely fabricating these quotes from a real person who is deeply involved in this situation.
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#):
>
> that last year the shop teacher, who identified as male at the time, was reprimanded for “toxic masculinity” and transphobic comments.
This is interesting. I haven’t seen that, but it does fit the anti-trans speculation, though not necessarily one that has a man targeting a different transwoman teacher.
---
### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2022, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/527 "2022-10-06T19:40:04Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> Is the depicted person Kayla Lemieux? We know the person is not Stephen Hanna, because the district said so.
>
> If the depicted person IS KL, then this person is NOT a male shop teacher who mocking the real transgendered teacher.
>
> If the person IS NOT KL, why didn’t the district clarify that, the same way they did with Mr. Hannah?
Why didn’t the district confirm that it _is_?
Once again, we are left with speculation, and if the trolling shop teacher said, “My name is Kayla Lemieux now”, then what’s the district to do? They would act exactly as they have.
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> Understand, this isn’t a random transphobe who is also liked. This is a transphobe who has publicly created a hostile working environment and brought international attention to the district, by openly mocking a fellow teacher in a way that can only be described as thoroughly despicable, AND undeniably illegal.
Only if they admit that the reason for dressing this way is to mock the other teacher. If they are trolling, but claim that this really is their gender expression, then it wouldn’t be illegal, and you would be chastised for calling it despicable.
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> The district then openly embraces this teacher, promising to protect them and validate their teaching.
If the administration has both transphobes who enjoy this trolling, and trans allies who are torn between wanting to support someone who claims a gender identity, but are aware that it is done in poor faith, then that’s pretty much the statement that they would come out with.
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> It’s not MY speculation, it’s the open claim of every media account of this situation, with literally zero statements to the contrary from anyone involved, who have commented multiple times about various aspects of the thing.
Please cite the media account that says that this is what this person wears _every day,_ not just to school, but at home, while out shopping, while hanging with friends, you know, _ **regular attire** _.
---
### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2022, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/528 "2022-10-06T22:46:36Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#):
>
> I’ve read multiple stories quoting anonymous sources that say that last year the shop teacher, who identified as male at the time, was reprimanded for “toxic masculinity” and transphobic comments. Granted, it comes from anonymous sources but it’s false to say that there have been “literally zero” statement to the contrary.
Can you link some of these stories? I’d be interested in reading.
---
### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2022, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/529 "2022-10-06T22:58:00Z")
…as this thread somehow has managed to _rocket_ past the “Republican war on transgender people” thread, with now over twice as many posts as that one, a reminder that this thread is all about this:
> [@chela](#):
>
> She is doing it without regard to the reactions that it may elicit and potential discomfort to the student body
It isn’t about the _actual_ discomfort to the student body. Just the _potential_ discomfort. Because we don’t actually know how anyone from the student body actually feels. Because all we have is a video, a handful of (IMHO) questionable photos, and a statement from the board.
Meanwhile, in the UK:
> [@Mermaids](#):
>
> Due to intolerable abuse, we have made the decision to close the helpline and webchat services for the rest of today and tomorrow. Next week, to enable us to take all volunteers off the rota, we will reduce hours to 9am to 6pm only.
>
> We do not make this decision lightly, but our duty of care towards staff and volunteers necessitates a harm reduction approach to protect our dedicated staff and volunteer team. We hope to be able to resume normal working hours as soon as possible.
[https://twitter.com/Mermaids\_Gender/status/1578009104425140225](https://twitter.com/Mermaids_Gender/status/1578009104425140225)
If I were to post a story a day in this thread from the _actual_ war on transgender people I would still only be scratching the surface. Things are really bad out there folks. I know how easy it is to get distracted. I’d be a hypocrite to say otherwise. But this thread really is about _nothing_. It was posted on September 19. Since then we have learned literally _nothing new_.
---
### Author:  [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2022, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/530 "2022-10-06T23:13:39Z")
This shit is cagey.
I barely care about this story, but in reading the thread it was pretty annoying that @RickJay was resisting inquiries into what exactly he confirmed and how he confirmed it. I have no emotional investment into the story being true or false, but I was intrigued by this seemingly deliberately uncooperative attitude.
I jumped in just to satisfy my own curiosity about whether or not he was being disingenuous.
I posted this:
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#):
>
> Part of the the problem here is that there’s not just one, “The story.” What specific story is true?
>
> Same with, “The pictures are real.” Which pictures? You get the idea.
>
> What specific things did your friends confirm?
He quoted that post and replied thusly:
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> The pictures and video are authentic and the teacher does in fact teach at Oakville Trafalgar High School.
A: The pictures are real.
B: Which pictures?
A: _The_ pictures are real.
That’s cagey as fuck.
---
### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/531 "2022-10-07T00:29:50Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#):
>
> I barely care about this story, but in reading the thread it was pretty annoying that @RickJay was resisting inquiries into what exactly he confirmed and how he confirmed it.
You need to re-read my posts, you seem to have misunderstood them.
As to “which pictures,” the link is literally in the OP. Did you miss that?
---
### Author:  [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/532 "2022-10-07T00:59:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> As to “which pictures,” the link is literally in the OP. Did you miss that?
I did not miss that. There were also other links to other pictures in the thread. Did you miss that
Something I did miss is you posting that your friend confirmed the pictures in the article linked in the OP. I missed it because you didn’t post it.
I asked, “Which pictures?” in a post asking for clarification and you chose to respond with, “The pictures,” in a cagey manner. You made a deliberate choice not to clarify when you could have put the issue to bed.
You could have posted something like, “I sent a link to the story in the OP to my friend who is works in the district and my friend confirmed that that article was accurate and the pictures and videos in that Daily Mail article are authentic.”
It’s not just me. Multiple posters were asking for clarification and you could have cleared it up at any time, but you chose to play a game of pretending to engage while actually deflecting.
You answered, “What you mean by ‘The pictures’ isn’t clear, which pictures are you referring to?” with, “The pictures.”
It is clear that you’re not making a honest effort at contributing to the discussion in this thread. You posted what you posted. Everyone can see it.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/533 "2022-10-07T02:15:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> If I were to post a story a day in this thread from the _actual_ war on transgender people I would still only be scratching the surface. Things are really bad out there folks. I know how easy it is to get distracted. I’d be a hypocrite to say otherwise. But this thread really is about _nothing_. It was posted on September 19. Since then we have learned literally _nothing new_.
Yup. I’m finding myself once again going after the low-hanging fruit, i.e., **chela** and his shitty bigotry. My bad, and I’ll try to stay out of the thread hereafter.
---
### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/534 "2022-10-07T02:41:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> If I were to post a story a day in this thread from the _actual_ war on transgender people I would still only be scratching the surface. Things are really bad out there folks. I know how easy it is to get distracted. I’d be a hypocrite to say otherwise. But this thread really is about _nothing_. It was posted on September 19. Since then we have learned literally _nothing new_.
The actual war on transgender people is depressing as hell, and i feel totally helpless to do anything about it. My liberal state had a ballot measure to restrict trans people (and anyone who might not look exactly like their gender) from bathrooms. I did lobby a bunch of people to go vote against that. But when Florida screws over trans people, there’s not a lot i can do.
This thread is just annoying. It’s much easier to post about a minor annoyance than to read and engage with real, horrible problems that I’m helpless to do anything about.
---
### Author:  [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/535 "2022-10-07T03:45:27Z")
Are you using **he** as a gender neutral pronoun? Because I was born female.
Thought you’d like to know as you are such an uptight pedantic asshole.
---
### Author:  [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/536 "2022-10-07T07:07:09Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> A woman is a person who identifies as a woman.
That definition seems so simplistic as to not really be a definition at all. You really believes that’s all one needs to do is identify in order to be something? What if I identify as black, but I’m not? Or First Nations? Or Jewish? Or 23 when I’m really 17? Where exactly do you draw the line?
---
### Author:  [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/537 "2022-10-07T10:40:12Z")
> [@Biffster](#):
>
> You really believes that’s all one needs to do is identify in order to be something? What if I identify as black, but I’m not?
You seem to be claiming that transwomen are really men. Further, you seem to be claiming that transwomen are lying and they know they’re lying.
---
### Author:  [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/538 "2022-10-07T11:50:18Z")
> [@Biffster](#):
>
> That definition seems so simplistic as to not really be a definition at all. You really believes that’s all one needs to do is identify in order to be something? What if I identify as black, but I’m not? Or First Nations? Or Jewish? Or 23 when I’m really 17? Where exactly do you draw the line?
I believe that’s the “if we allow gay people to get married, then what?” slippery slope argument. I feel confident in saying we can cross each of those bridges as we come to them. This isn’t an all or nothing issue.
Plus, we’ve already had one major story about ‘trans-racial’ with Rachel Dolezal.
---
### Author:  [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/539 "2022-10-07T12:28:59Z")
> [@Biffster](#):
>
> That definition seems so simplistic as to not really be a definition at all. You really believes that’s all one needs to do is identify in order to be something? What if I identify as black, but I’m not? Or First Nations? Or Jewish? Or 23 when I’m really 17? Where exactly do you draw the line?
I think it’s helpful to realize that words can have multiple meanings, and sometimes these meanings overlap or conflict, and this may cause confusion. Both of these are valid definitions for women:
- An adult of the sex typically associated with childbirth
- A person who identifies as a woman
You’re right that the 2nd definition is very simplistic. It doesn’t actually define anything. The first definition is objective and actually defines what it is, but the second definition could be anything. But this is true for other words as well. For example, if someone says “I identify as a fan of the Dallas Cowboys”, that tells you very little about what that means to them. Perhaps it means they go to all the games, know all the players, dress in blue and grey, and so on. Or maybe it means they like the team but don’t watch the games, don’t know the players, and know very little about football. The gender version of words like “woman” is sort of like “fan” in that sense. It’s a personal identification that may or may not align with the group as a whole.
Another way to think of it is that a statement like “A season ticket holder to the Dallas Cowboys” is an objective statement that has a clear meaning. Either the person has a season ticket or they don’t. But “A fan of the Dallas Cowboys” can really mean anything. And also, not all season ticket holders are fans (e.g. a consultant who has tickets to give to clients) and not all fans are season ticket holders. Unfortunately the word “woman” has both an objective (sex-based) and subjective (gender-based) definitions, so there are often these huge conflicts about what is or isn’t a woman. But these conflicts often seem to be because people are trying to make the two definitions into a single definition. If instead you think of the word having two separate definitions, it’s easier to understand woman as a gender versus woman as a sex.
---
### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/540 "2022-10-07T13:42:07Z")
I think Shania said it best.
> Oh-oh-oh, I wanna be free
> Yeah, to feel the way I feel
> Man! I feel like a woman!
I doubt it’s what she meant of course.
But a person who identifies as a gender feels that way all the time. That’s how their brain is physically wired. It’s not something they do out of convenience or as a joke or to make a point. They are that gender.
There are also people who are non-binary. They identify as neither. They may fluctuate between the two (genderfluid), they may feel like they have aspects of both, they may feel like they are a third gender entirely, or have no gender (agender). But these are sincerely-held beliefs that are part of their core identity.
The key though is that it is who they are. Not something they pretend to be, or something they do out of convenience. The protagonists of the classic TV show _Bosom Buddies_ masqueraded as women but didn’t truly identify as them, and so they weren’t women.
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