# Shop class no no’s Shorts, long hair and giant prosthetic boobs?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 18, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773 "2022-09-18T21:00:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 28
### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/541 "2022-10-07T13:51:21Z")
> [@Biffster](#):
>
> What if I identify as black, but I’m not? Or First Nations?
That is a complicated question. I worked for an Indian tribe and their rolls, where they decided who was considered a tribal member and who wasn’t, were controversial and a large source of conflict. Much of it was political, and there was always fighting. See here:
> **[Frequently Asked Questions - Native American Rights Fund](https://narf.org/frequently-asked-questions/)**
>
> Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Native Peoples Who is a Native American? As a general principle an Indian is a person who is of some degree Indian blood and is recognized as an Indian by a tribe/village and/or the United States. There...
> As a general principle an Indian is a person who is of some degree Indian blood and is recognized as an Indian by a tribe/village and/or the United States. There exists no universally accepted rule for establishing a person’s identity as an Indian. The criteria for tribal membership differs from one tribe to the next. To determine a particular tribe’s criteria, one must contact that tribe directly. For its own purposes, the Bureau of the Census counts anyone an Indian who declares to be such. By recent counts, there are more than 2.9 million Native Americans, including Native Alaskans and Native Hawaiians.
---
### Author:  [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/542 "2022-10-07T13:54:50Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> I think it’s helpful to realize that words can have multiple meanings, and sometimes these meanings overlap or conflict, and this may cause confusion. Both of these are valid definitions for women:
>
> - An adult of the sex typically associated with childbirth
> - A person who identifies as a woman
But to pick up **Biffster’s** point, what’s to stop a white person calling themself black and justifying it by saying that a black person is simply a person who identifies as black?
---
### Author:  [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/543 "2022-10-07T14:07:53Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#):
>
> But to pick up **Biffster’s** point, what’s to stop a white person calling themself black and justifying it by saying that a black person is simply a person who identifies as black?
It really only matters when it really matters. If your coworker wants to be known as black by other coworkers, who cares? Just like if someone wants to be known as a Cowboys fan but they never watch the games. But if your coworker wants black-specific scholarships, affirmative action consideration, minority status for tax purposes, etc. then it’s important for those things to be specific about what exactly they mean by black or minority (e.g. heritage from Sub-Saharan Africa).
---
### Author:  [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/544 "2022-10-07T14:13:23Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> But if your coworker wants black-specific scholarships, affirmative action consideration, minority status for tax purposes, etc. then it’s important for those things to specific what exactly they mean by black or minority (e.g. heritage from Sub-Saharan Africa).
But the more interesting question, I think, is would my co-worker actually _be_ black, if he had a deep inner conviction that he was?
---
### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/545 "2022-10-07T14:18:50Z")
Are you sure you’re not [Matt Walsh?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_the_Walrus)
---
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/546 "2022-10-07T14:25:53Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#):
>
> But to pick up **Biffster’s** point, what’s to stop a white person calling themself black and justifying it by saying that a black person is simply a person who identifies as black?
We stop them by publicly identifying them as racist transphobic morons, because this entire idea is only something that a blithering idiot would think is a clever point of debate.
It’s stupid, and you’re stupid, and you’ve made all of us incrementally stupider by forcing us to read it.
---
### Author:  [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/547 "2022-10-07T14:26:12Z")
I don’t see why you can identify into a different gender but not a different race.
---
### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/548 "2022-10-07T14:28:00Z")
When you say “Identify into a different gender” are you saying trans women are not real women?
---
### Author:  [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/549 "2022-10-07T14:29:51Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#):
>
> But to pick up **Biffster’s** point, what’s to stop a white person calling themself black and justifying it by saying that a black person is simply a person who identifies as black?
> **[Rachel Dolezal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal)**
>
> Nkechi Amare Diallo (born Rachel Anne Dolezal, November 12, 1977)\[fn 1\] (/ˈdoʊləʒɑːl/) is an American former college instructor and activist known for presenting herself as a black woman despite being born to white parents. She is also a former National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) chapter president.
> Dolezal was president of the NAACP chapter in Spokane, Washington, from 2014 until June 2015, when she resigned in the midst of controversy over her racial identity. S...
---
### Author:  [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/550 "2022-10-07T14:31:07Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> We stop them by publicly identifying them as racist transphobic morons, because this entire idea is only something that a blithering idiot would think is a clever point of debate.
Why? Why is it that someone can self identify as a different gender but not a different race? Or a different age, for that matter? Have a little think, and come back to me with something more than overly defensive bluster.
---
### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/551 "2022-10-07T14:31:56Z")
Still waiting for an answer
---
### Author:  [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/552 "2022-10-07T14:34:04Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> When you say “Identify into a different gender” are you saying trans women are not real women?
I honestly don’t think my personal opinion on whether trans women are real women is relevant to the question.
For the record, however, if a trans woman told me her pronouns were she/her I would use them.
---
### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/553 "2022-10-07T14:34:47Z")
You failed to answer the question.
---
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/554 "2022-10-07T14:48:10Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#):
>
> Why is it that someone can self identify as a different gender but not a different race?
There is a LONG history of people passing as a different race in order to get benefits or avoid persecution, which is why I’m immediately skeptical of anyone claiming they genuinely identify as a different race.
Second, what does it mean to identify as a race when you have few, if any, shared experiences with people of that race, and no family history of that race?
Third, this always comes up as a moronic hypothetical in discussions of transgenderism. So… fuck your hypothetical, and stop being an asshole.
---
### Author:  [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/555 "2022-10-07T14:48:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> You failed to answer the question.
Given what we’re talking about, I don’t think it’s a question that needs answering. But if you insist on an answer I suppose the best I can do is “I don’t know”.
That said, I’d be happy to treat a transwoman as a woman in real life and respect their pronouns etc…
---
### Author:  [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/556 "2022-10-07T15:00:44Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#):
>
> But the more interesting question, I think, is would my co-worker actually _be_ black, if he had a deep inner conviction that he was?
Why not? Maybe he’s got white skin, but was raised in an all-black family. So he might very well identify as black. Would he tell his doctor to always treat him as though he were biologically black? He shouldn’t. Just like a transwoman shouldn’t tell her doctor to offer treatments as though she were assigned female at birth.
> [@WalterBishop](#):
>
> Or a different age, for that matter?
That’s pure stupidity. Fucking trolls.
---
### Author:  [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/557 "2022-10-07T15:31:59Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> There is a LONG history of people passing as a different race in order to get benefits or avoid persecution, which is why I’m immediately skeptical of anyone claiming they genuinely identify as a different race.
Yet there are people who do, and those rare individuals seem, almost universally, to be white, so we can rule out getting benefits and avoiding persecution as possible motives. If anything, they’d be _losing_ benefits and _inviting_ persecution by identifying as another race, which would strongly imply that they were sincere (albeit, perhaps, not especially well balanced).
If sincere self-declaration is all that’s necessary to change one’s gender in the eyes of the world, why can’t the same be true of changing one’s race?
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> Second, what does it mean to identify as a race when you have few, if any, shared experiences with people of that race, and no family history of that race?
You might well ask a trans woman the same question. There are countless experiences that cis women have that trans women can’t ever share. If a lack of shared experience isn’t sufficient to invalidate the identity of a trans woman, why should it be sufficient to invalidate the identity of someone who sincerely claims to be of a different race?
---
### Author:  [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/558 "2022-10-07T15:33:54Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#):
>
> > [@WalterBishop](#):
> >
> > Or a different age, for that matter?
>
> That’s pure stupidity. Fucking trolls.
I think it’s perfectly possible to “queer” normative conceptions of age. I can’t imagine being the kind of person who’d want to do so, but it might be fun to try 🙂
---
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/559 "2022-10-07T15:37:11Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#):
>
> Yet there are people who do, and those rare individuals seem, almost universally, to be white, so we can rule out getting benefits and avoiding persecution as possible motives. If anything, they’d be _losing_ benefits and _inviting_ persecution by identifying as another race, which would strongly imply that they were sincere
Well, that’s the dumbest fucking thing I’m going to read today.
---
### Author:  [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2022, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/560 "2022-10-07T15:41:56Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> Well, that’s the dumbest fucking thing I’m going to read today.
Is white privilege not a thing?
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773.md?page=27)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773.md?page=29)