# Short-circuiting the illegitimate Bush presidency **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2000, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382 "2000-12-13T18:15:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/101 "2000-12-16T00:56:22Z")
Ahhh, Stoidela? Usually when I kill an animal it’s because I wanna eat it. I’m not a hunter or anything, but I’ve done in my share of chickens and sheep. It’s not fun, it’s a lot of work. But it’s no worse than picking it up at KFC. Oh, and the bears and wolves are doing fine…IN ALASKA. They are in trouble in the lower 48…but increasing in numbers. Salmon runs are down, but that isn’t caused by development, it’s caused by overfishing to feed the lower 48. Take a look at a population density map of Alaska some time. There’s Anchorage, there’s Fairbanks…and then there’s a few hundred thousand other people for the whole state. Which is larger than Texas multiplied by three. The bears are doing fine. In fact, they asked me to invite more tourists…the last ones tasted delicious. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/102 "2000-12-16T01:12:49Z")
**Gaderene** : > [@](#): > > Moore as someone who never tells the truth despite innumerable instances to the contrary–well, that’s either pretty damn sloppy or a tad self-interested and intellectually dishonest. > > I hope it’s just sloppy. Nope. Just a (tiny) bit of hyperbole. We’ve seen in this thread his duplicity about unionism, his duplicity about General Motors North American Auto Operations, and his glossing-over of the Tosco lawsuit. We’ve seen no cites at all of him actually breaking a story, telling the truth about an issue or doing anything else besides make **Stoidela** look like an impartial observer by comparison. But rather than ask you for cites, we should probably let this drop for now – the thread has gone pretty far afield of our (well, OK, my) hijack. **JDM** : Sure, but killing the health plan and all that was normal politics. Again, we should probably leave this thread to the folks willing to feed **Stoidela** ’s hypocrisy, and pick up the politics some other time. I will say to you though, that you probably won’t hate Cheney as much as you think you will, even if you never learn to like Bush. You’ll disagree with Cheney a lot, but he’s a real, live adult. **DITWD** : Reasonable people can (and did, and do) disagree about whether Clinton’s lies under oath rise to the level of perjury, and can (and did, and do) disagree about whether even a “little” perjury is a removable offense, or whether it takes a really BIG perjury or perhaps no perjury at all is a removable offense. But if you are seriously asserting that Clinton did not lie under oath, than either you were not paying attention or you possess too much ignorance to be eradicated. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/103 "2000-12-16T01:15:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*Ahhh, Stoidela? Usually when I kill an animal it’s because I wanna eat it. I’m not a hunter or anything, but I’ve done in my share of chickens and sheep. It’s not fun, it’s a lot of work. \*\* I have no problem with that at all. It is not the mere fact of killing an animal I have problems with, it is how and why it is done, and how you feel about what you are doing. You say right here that it is no fun, and that is the attitude I think everyone should have. Why anyone would hunt for “fun” is utterly outside my ability to fathom. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > [BThe bears are doing fine. In fact, they asked me to invite more tourists…the last ones tasted delicious. \*\* Good for the bears! 😃 stoid ---
**Author:** ![JDM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/90db22/32.png) [@JDM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDM)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/104 "2000-12-16T01:55:31Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by manhattan \* **JDM** : I will say to you though, that you probably won’t hate Cheney as much as you think you will, even if you never learn to like Bush. You’ll disagree with Cheney a lot, but he’s a real, live adult. Maybe not, but I know I’ll have at least as much fun hating Lynn as the right wingers have hating Hillary. I wonder if Junior will put her back in the cabinet. Actually I’m afraid it won’t be very much fun. JDM ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/105 "2000-12-16T05:24:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Suffice it to say that I am happy to be the hypocritcal Angeleno who holds the most radical view possible. \*\* You’re happy that you can’t live up to your own values? Most people end up feeling sad if they’re not living according to their beliefs. I’m amazed. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Somebody has to, and since I have zero power to impose my views on anyone in this, or any other circumstance, i wouldn’t worry too much about how over the top I may appear to you. \*\* If you’re going to talk the talk why not walk the walk? > [@](#): > > \*\* > My hope is only that you and others might stop and consider the idea that human beings are not the most important thing on the planet, that maybe all the other beings are _equally_ important, and the habitat they require to survive is _equally_ important. \*\* Just so long as you don’t have to stop living a lifestyle you’ve become accustomed to. Let the rest of us work things out while you live with all the fixtures of modern life. Human beings are the most important thing on the planet. At least to most other human beings. The habitat of other animals is only important as it relates to human beings. Does anyone really miss the dodo bird? Marc ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/106 "2000-12-16T08:11:29Z")
Wow, manhattan, you must be a rich enough guy to be able to close down a factory after taking $20 million from a city in a pledge not to shut it down, send the work to another country for cheap labor, then blame the likes of Michael Moore for bad publicity. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/107 "2000-12-16T08:59:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > > **JDM** : Sure, but killing the health plan a > **DITWD** : Reasonable people can (and did, and do) disagree about whether Clinton’s lies under oath rise to the level of perjury, and can (and did, and do) disagree about whether even a “little” perjury is a removable offense, or whether it takes a really BIG perjury or perhaps no perjury at all is a removable offense. But if you are seriously asserting that Clinton did not lie under oath, than either you were not paying attention or you possess too much ignorance to be eradicated. > \*\* Exactly- Clintons, umm, well, let me say “misstatements of truth” (to the grand Jury especially) did not rise to the level of perjury. Some folks, when they hear “lying under oath” assume that = “perjury”, so i try not to use the term "lie’ to refer to the Presidents “weaseling”. And in my mind- if the crime is not so serious that they propose the death penalty for it- which is primarily, in that job- “treason”, then it is not impeachable. The GOP will have their little theory of “any crime is a High crime” rise up & bite them on the ass someday. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/108 "2000-12-16T11:15:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoidela \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Mr.Zambezi \* > > \*\*Well, the moose I shot in Alaska is doing pretty well He just kind of sits there on the wall all day and stares, but seems pretty much blissed out. 😃 \*\* > > Wow, Mr. Zambezi… you are entertained and amused by the act of **killling**! What part do you enjoy the most…the blood? Gutting it? Feeling the warm entrails in your hands? Or maybe you just enjoy the stunned look of pain and confusion on the face of the animal…so many things to enjoy, I can’t imagine how you could pick just one favorite! Death is so cool, isn’t it? Especially causing it for other beings…that is SO neat! I’ll bet you really envy the Japanese who get to hack dolphins to death in a great big orgy of squealing gore, don’t you? Cuz that just has to be the coolest thing in the world to do… Wow. > > Oh, and I forgot the best part! When you watch that animal die in a spray of blood and gore, hopefully screaming in pain and terror, your dick gets rock hard, doesn’t it? I’ll bet your wife gets it really good right after a manly day of death-delivering, doesn’t she? > > stoid\*\* Hey **Stoid** , you and I can often agree but you’re way out of line on this one. I didn’t read to the bottom of the thread when I saw this, so others may have jumped on you already. A couple of things: [li]“What part do you enjoy most?” Well I might enjoy the moose jerkey. It rates with some of the best I’ve ever had. If I was into hunting and had the inclination, I might just have to bag one for that reason alone.[/li] [li]A good hunter doesn’t cause the quarry “pain and confusion”. A good sportsman speeds the animal to a quick end. Only bad hunters routinely wing a critter or let it get away without finishing it off.[/li] [li]A good hunter goes for the cleanest and quickest kill so that they don’t chase the animal through heavy brush for a few miles. You also avoid gut shots as even one can ruin the meat from the kill.[/li] [li]Without knowing what caliber of sportsman **Mr. Zambezie** is, to compare a good hunter with commercial fisherman brutally mutilating a living animal is both insulting and ignorant of you. Good hunters do **NOT** enjoy inflicting unnecessary pain when they bag an animal. Those that do are sick and cruel individuals who do not deserve to be called sportsmen.[/li] You really own **Dr. Zambezie** an apology. We all may have political differences but that does not allow you to speculate so inappropriately about his hunting or sex life. That was just plain rude! ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/109 "2000-12-16T13:37:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Wow, Mr. Zambezi… you are entertained and amused by the act of killing! What part do you enjoy the most…the blood? Gutting it? Are you the same woman who posts pictures of women spreading their legs for the entertainment and amusement of men? What part do you enjoy the most…the degradation of these women? Or is it the money? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/110 "2000-12-16T15:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\* > > You really own **Dr. Zambezie** an apology. \*\* I did stoop, I admit. But Mr. Zambezi baited me. Shame on me for taking the bait, I rarely do. If you will look back, you will see that he knew exactly what he was doing - I had already made quite clear my feelings about animals, he certainly could imagine my feelings about hunting, and that is precisely why he made the post he did, which had a completely flip and laughing attitude towards killing and served absolutely no other purpose than to taunt me. So, while I am certainly none too proud of having risen to the bait, I do not feel I owe Mr. Zambezi an apology. I’m sure he was very entertained by my post; he made me misbehave and that was almost certainly his goal. stoid ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/111 "2000-12-16T16:00:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > \*\* > Are you the same woman who posts pictures of women spreading their legs for the entertainment and amusement of men? > > What part do you enjoy the most…the degradation of these women? Or is it the money? \*\* :rolleyes: Oy vay… Punditlisa… I know you don’t like me, and you seek every opportunity you can find to dis me, but with this one your reach really exceeds your grasp. Attacking what I do in the hopes of shaming me is pretty silly. In order to shame a person, they have to be doing something wrong. Or at least believe they are. I am neither. Not to mention the fact that most of the women “spreading their legs for the entertainment for men” that I display are probably dead. But to answer your question…I’d have to say its the money. 😃 Stoid [sub] Uh, PL… you seem to have issues with sex work. Which are you, exactly, a bad feminist or a good fundie?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/112 "2000-12-16T18:32:05Z")
JDM: you really think that the right wingers hated Hillary simply because she was a democratic president’s wife? No, they (and me, but I’m not a right-winger) hated Hillary for many other reasons. If you think they (and me) would hate any democrat’s wife, how often have you heard Rush Limbaugh ranting about how awful Tipper is, or how awful Joe Lieberman’s wife is? Hillary earned her status by her actions. How about waiting until Bush and Cheney’s wives do something horrible, selfish, egotistical, and diametically opposed to your values before you decide to hate them. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/113 "2000-12-16T19:44:47Z")
Damn, I must admit I’ve always thought people have been responsible for their own actions. Now thanks to stoid I realise that if someone taunts me I can do whatever I want to them. Stoid you say you are 43 but you act like a 3 year old. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/114 "2000-12-16T21:25:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asmodean \* > \*\*Damn, I must admit I’ve always thought people have been responsible for their own actions. Now thanks to stoid I realise that if someone taunts me I can do whatever I want to them. \*\* Gee, Asmo, what did I “do” to Mr. Z? Rip his heart out and eat it? Bite me really hard…ooo…yeah…harder… I like it! stoid ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/115 "2000-12-16T23:13:17Z")
**Stoidela** , do you eat meat? If so, is it the meat of domesticated animals, like beef, pork, chicken, turkey, farm-raised fish and seafood? If so, what, exactly, is the difference between eating the meat of domesticated animals and eating the meat of wild ones? Signed, _An Omnivore_ ---
**Author:** ![JDM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/90db22/32.png) [@JDM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDM)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/116 "2000-12-16T23:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*JDM: you really think that the right wingers hated Hillary simply because she was a democratic president’s wife? > > No, they (and me, but I’m not a right-winger) hated Hillary for many other reasons. If you think they (and me) would hate any democrat’s wife, how often have you heard Rush Limbaugh ranting about how awful Tipper is, or how awful Joe Lieberman’s wife is? > > Hillary earned her status by her actions. How about waiting until Bush and Cheney’s wives do something horrible, selfish, egotistical, and diametically opposed to your values before you decide to hate them. \*\* Everything that I have heard fron Lynn Cheney, with the possible exception (I thank Martin Gardner for this) of her criticism of present-day math teaching in elementary schools, is diametrically opposed to my values. I don’t know anything about Bush’s wife except that she was a librarian. I wonder how he met her- it sure wasn’t at work. JDM ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2000, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/117 "2000-12-17T00:52:05Z")
Actually, I don’t know if it is possible to hijack this thread even further. What was it about again? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\ ***Stoidela** , do you eat meat? If so, is it the meat of domesticated animals, like beef, pork, chicken, turkey, farm-raised fish and seafood? If so, what, exactly, is the difference between eating the meat of domesticated animals and eating the meat of wild ones? > > Signed, _An Omnivore_ \*\* Yes, I eat meat. There is no difference between eating game and eating domesticated animals. My objection lies entirely with the act of killing for “fun”. We can get deeply into this in a different thread if you like, but it boils down to this: I find it sickening and weird that someone would deliberately go out to kill things, whether to eat them or mount them. I can’t understand what is pleasurable about that act, and I never will. I cannot understand or appreciate why someone would enjoy it. ew. And for the record, before we go there, I have big problems with the way the majority of animals are treated on factory farms. BIG problems with it, I think it is evil. Taking an animal from being alive to being dead, especially if the animal is raised for this purpose, I do not think is inherently bad…they don’t know. What I DO have a problem with is making a living thing miserable while it lives. And if anyone wants to discuss this further, open a thread so others who might wish to participate know that the discussion is even happening. stoid ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2000, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/118 "2000-12-17T01:37:54Z")
Thanks for the answer. My feelings are pretty much the same as yours. If y’all do open a thread about eating meat, it’ll have to be without me. I’m going to Texas to see the relatives and I’m going to be off the SDMB for at least three weeks and perhaps longer. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2000, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/119 "2000-12-17T04:49:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr.Zambezi \* > Another great thing about being republican right now is getting to watch California reaping the rewards of government fixed prices and environmental concerns governing energy production. An interesting interpretation. I heard the head of some energy entity in California, I believe basically the L.A. area (whose own entity is doing quite well and has surplus energy to sell). He was blaming things on the whole deregulation of this market. To each his own interpretation, I suppose…although I tend to believe he may be more knowledgeable on this than you! ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2000, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382/120 "2000-12-17T04:57:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > If you think they (and me) would hate any democrat’s wife, how often have you heard Rush Limbaugh ranting about how awful Tipper is, or how awful Joe Lieberman’s wife is? > > Hillary earned her status by her actions. Yes, by golly, if Rush was ranting about Hillary, he must have had a very good reason! By golly, does Rush ever rant about anything without a good reason!?! 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-circuiting-the-illegitimate-bush-presidency/45382.md?page=7)