# Short of being klilled what happened to community assholes & undesirables in ancient times? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 11, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122 "2016-06-11T17:09:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/21 "2016-06-13T00:26:10Z")
Criminal law may have been underdeveloped, but civil law was available in many places. I’ve always heard that English peasants were highly litigious (if only because there wasn’t much else to do in the winter). A woman who harassed her neighbors, for instance, could be sued and declared a “common scold,” which was essentially a form of public nuisance. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/22 "2016-06-13T01:42:20Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > A woman who harassed her neighbors, for instance, could be sued and declared a “common scold,” which was essentially a form of public nuisance. Yeah, but if she was pretty, she’d ALWAYS get out of it. Now… if in 100 AD… there was a way to… nah, too gruesome. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/23 "2016-06-13T05:36:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There were female-specific torture instruments like the [scold’s bridle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scold%27s_bridle) to keep them “properly” submissive. > > As for women “sleeping around”, IIRC they’d be executed for fornication. Same if they were raped, too. I don’t think you _do_ recall correctly. Historically, it has only exceptionally been the case that fornication has been a crime at all, still less a capital crime. If anything, negative attitudes towards fornication became stronger with the advent of modernity. (Puritanism, and all that.) _Adultery_, now, might get a woman in a whole heap of quite possibly fatal trouble. But, even then, the fatality would be inflicted by an avenging husband/family, not by the law. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/24 "2016-06-13T05:42:05Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s my understanding that in very small communities–50 or fewer people–there is tremendous effort put into building consensus because disagreement can be so dangerous. You’re not going to get the same model of asshole you get in the modern workplace, because they are being raised in such an utterly different context–everyone has known everyone since birth. I am sure they had different social challenges and issues, but it’s hard to make direct comparison. > > For example, the man beating his wife is also beating everyone else’s daughter/cousin/friend/sister; that changes things. The making up stories thing would not work in that small of a community–every lie would get discovered, starting in childhood. This. In the pre-modern world, people were much more highly interdependent than today. For most people, survival as an individual was simply not possible; you had to be connected to your extended family, your community, etc, in a network of mutual support. This meant that informal mechanisms for ensuring conformity with community expectations were very powerful, and there was correpondingly less need for formal criminal and civil legal systems. Could men beat their wives with impunity? Only in so far as the community thought that wife-beating was something a husband should be allowed to do (which might be quite far, of course). But if he crossed that line, the wife had a family, the wife had friends, and there were various ways of putting pressure on the husband which could be powerfully effective. The most difficult to control were those who had least to lose - those already on the margins of the community, already partly alienated. But they were a fairly small minority. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/25 "2016-06-13T14:57:23Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > This. In the pre-modern world, people were much more highly interdependent than today. For most people, survival as an individual was simply not possible; you had to be connected to your extended family, your community, etc, in a network of mutual support. This meant that informal mechanisms for ensuring conformity with community expectations were very powerful, and there was correpondingly less need for formal criminal and civil legal systems. I don’t disagree, but I will again emphasize the role of formal legal systems. The payment of weregild as a civil remedy goes back at least as far as Salic Law (500 AD or so), and it is mentioned in Icelandic eddas and Beowulf. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/26 "2016-06-13T15:21:07Z")
In ancient Greece they could be [ostracised](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism). > [@](#): > > Ostracism (Greek: ὀστρακισμός, ostrakismos) was a procedure under the Athenian democracy in which any citizen could be expelled from the city-state of Athens for ten years. While some instances clearly expressed popular anger at the citizen, ostracism was often used preemptively. It was used as a way of neutralizing someone thought to be a threat to the state or potential tyrant. Indeed, the Athenians gave us the word: > [@](#): > > The name is derived from the ostraka, (singular ostrakon, ὄστρακον), referring to the pottery shards that were used as voting tokens. Broken pottery, abundant and virtually free, served as a kind of scrap paper (in contrast to papyrus, which was imported from Egypt as a high-quality writing surface, and was thus too costly to be disposable). ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/27 "2016-06-13T15:23:06Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But they were a fairly small minority. Perhaps. Still, do you remember that there are three “unalienable rights” which predate and supersede ALL of the Constitution? _Refresher_ “…Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.” If any ONE of that small minority is not entitled to all of these things, free of harassment, and protected by due process, then NONE of you are. No Party can over rule this. No Religion can over rule this. That’s America. And if you don’t like it, there are 1000 other countries for you to choose from. Flights leave from Terminal-C On The Hour. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/28 "2016-06-13T15:54:04Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > In the late middle ages until about 1750, people could be put in stockades … do it again, and you sent to the stockade for the afternoon. Stocks. A stockade is a defensive wall, or an area enclosed by such a wall, or a military prison. Soldiers sent to the stockade would stay rather longer than an afternoon. BTW, the [stocks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stocks#Form_and_application)secure someone’s legs. The device that holds someone’s neck and arms is a [pillory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillory#Description). A lot of people get that wrong. Also, according to Wiki, stocks and pillories were in regular use until about 1830, then infrequently until the 1870s. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/29 "2016-06-13T15:58:10Z")
Nobody yet mentioned the [ducking stool](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucking_stool). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/30 "2016-06-13T19:41:59Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > An exile might come back and burn down your hovel. People tolerated a lot to avoid such situations and then turned to violence. Exile might be a way to settle a personal dispute between two people or families, one guy leaves town so there doesn’t have to be a blood feud, but it’s not the way to deal with bullies and assholes. It could be very difficult to be accepted in another village, there would be immediate suspicion as to why you aren’t in your own village. Someone in that position might wander for a while until they found a place to settle. You make it sound as if nobody ever moved. People did move: not as easily as today, but they did. And while moving from a small place to another would have been harder (still is today), if you could get to a big city it was easy to become one more face lost in the multitude. > [@](#): > > People now have forgotten the danger of ostracization. Still happens, we did it to a couple my age whose behavior was considered completely unnaceptable by everybody in our age group. They were “do not work at all, party hard” people, expecting their third baby while both still each living in his/her parents’ house (despite having one of their own, the excuse not to move in was that “it’s not decorated yet”), both re-re-repeating 8th grade, neither holding a job, neither ever taking actual care of the two kids they already had. Good luck finding a party to go to when nobody your age within day trip distance of your home is talking to you. Eventually they realized they had to grow the hell up or get used to people talking through, over, around… them. > [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > And if you don’t like it, there are 1000 other countries for you to choose from. Flights leave from Terminal-C On The Hour. Only about 200, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/31 "2016-06-13T19:49:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > In ancient Greece they could be [ostracised](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism). > Indeed, the Athenians gave us the word: Thanks. Had to click the link to see if I remembered it properly. Yup. Only done once a year. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/32 "2016-06-13T21:12:09Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Only about 200, actually. But, if they Act Now, those useless suits filled with shit, they’ll only have to pay Additional Shipping and Handling…! ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/33 "2016-06-14T00:31:35Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > …_Adultery_, now, might get a woman in a whole heap of quite possibly fatal trouble. But, even then, the fatality would be inflicted by an avenging husband/family, not by the law. IIRC adultery not involving a female member of the royal family was never an actual crime under English law (at since the Reformation). In the US though most states did have laws against adultery or fornication, but those were local enactments, not something carried over from England. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/34 "2016-06-14T01:38:12Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Perhaps. > > Still, do you remember that there are three “unalienable rights” which predate and supersede ALL of the Constitution? > > _Refresher_ > > “…Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.” If any ONE of that small minority is not entitled to all of these things, free of harassment, and protected by due process, then NONE of you are. > No Party can over rule this. No Religion can over rule this. That’s America. > > And if you don’t like it, there are 1000 other countries for you to choose from. Flights leave from Terminal-C On The Hour. I’m not sure what this has to do with the OP’s question, which specifically refers to “ancient times”. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/35 "2016-06-14T01:52:34Z")
I read a juicy pulpy paperback about a decadent Roman emperor who exiled a troublesome male prostitute to a rural backwater, a hundred miles away, with only the clothes on his back. He was transported there and dumped off near an impoverished, primitive village “and there you may ply your trade, trudging through the mud.” It was on one hand, seemingly kind of the emperor to let the victim live, but exiled to a few mud huts in the country after living the sophisticated high life in Rome? Shocking! ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/36 "2016-06-14T01:57:53Z")
> [@](#): > > IIRC adultery not involving a female member of the royal family was never an actual crime under English law (at since the Reformation). In the US though most states did have laws against adultery or fornication, but those were local enactments, not something carried over from England. and fairly recent, not in “ancient times.” Most of the disapproval of sex is an invention of Christianity. Prior to that religion spreading, people were far more relaxed about this natural function. For example, many places regularly had fertility festivals and parties that were basically orgies. Prostitution was legal and accepted in ancient Greece and Rome. People openly took lovers of either or both sexes. Adultery wasn’t a crime, but since married women were considered property, a husband could kill a straying wife if he wanted to, unless the woman had some powerful relatives who would come after him if he did so. Even in Christian-controlled countries, apparently quite a few people didn’t pay any attention to the Christian “sex is for reproduction ONLY” rule. How else would a syphilis epidemic spread in the 16th century? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/37 "2016-06-14T02:26:20Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Criminal law may have been underdeveloped, but civil law was available in many places. I’ve always heard that English peasants were highly litigious (if only because there wasn’t much else to do in the winter). A woman who harassed her neighbors, for instance, could be sued and declared a “common scold,” which was essentially a form of public nuisance. You can sue her, but it won’t do you much good in the long run. There’s no cure for the common scold. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/38 "2016-06-14T02:26:31Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > I’m not sure what this has to do with the OP’s question, which specifically refers to “ancient times”. Withdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/39 "2016-06-14T02:43:05Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The payment of weregild as a civil remedy goes back at least as far as Salic Law (500 AD or so), and it is mentioned in Icelandic eddas and Beowulf. I had to look up weregild and I’m _so_ disappointed it doesn’t mean werewolf gold ☹ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122/40 "2016-06-14T11:45:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > if you could get to a big city it was easy to become one more face lost in the multitude. [Stadtluft macht frei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtluft_macht_frei) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-being-klilled-what-happened-to-community-assholes-undesirables-in-ancient-times/757122.md?page=3)