# Short of scrapping the Constitution, how do we get rid of the U.S. Senate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800 "2012-05-23T07:11:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/21 "2012-05-23T19:00:55Z")
I don’t have a cite handy, but I recall hearing that 11% of the population elects enough Senators to lock up congress. Think about that. Not only does a state with half a million people get as many Senators as California or Texas, but even when you massively handicap the high population states with the 2-fer rule, you still need less than 50 votes to stop everything in its tracks. With the filibuster 40 votes is all you need. A tiny sliver of the population controls the country. 11% of the population can stop the will of the other 89%. That’s horrid. Especially if you’ve spent any time in those states with very, very low populations. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/22 "2012-05-23T19:41:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m kind of amazed that anyone would look at the American congress, and decide that its the _Senate_ that needs to go. That’s what I keep saying and thinking when this topic comes up. Do people not realize how many flat-out morons and lunatic get elected to the House? There are a couple in the Senate and some Senators are badly out of touch, but there is a much larger proportion of out-to-lunch Michele Bachmanns and Cynthia McKinneys and Allen Wests and (at least on some issues) Ron Pauls in the House - people who not only are nowhere near the mainstream of political discourse, but who make no pretense at even trying to figure out where that is and just represent the small and deeply partisan areas that elected them. (And no, I don’t think the House should be abolished either.) I’m coming to the reluctant conclusion that filibuster needs to be changed or eliminated since apparently Senators are too partisan or dumb to help themselves at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/23 "2012-05-23T20:01:47Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Screw democracy. The will of the mob is not the way to run a country. > > As for Point 2 - exactly how will scrapping the Senate solve your foreign policy “problem?” (I disagree strongly that it’s a problem to begin with.) I agree. Somewhere in elementary school, people heard or misunderstood that the U.S. is a democracy and then interpreted that to mean that more democracy is always a worthwhile goal. It isn’t. The U.S. has a republican form of government with some aspects of democracy needed to support that. Someone has to do a lot better than more democracy = good to convince me that there is a particular problem or solution that more democracy will solve. I don’t think there is much wrong with the U.S. Senate either. Most of the arguments against it come down to it not being purely democratic but it was never meant to be. That is a feature, not a bug. Someone pointed out that other advanced countries don’t have the Senate to worry with. Where? Like Western Europe? Somehow, I thought those types of arguments would not be made these days for self-evident reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/24 "2012-05-23T21:46:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In the last chapter of [_The Frozen Republic: How the Constitution is Paralyzing Democracy,_](http://www.amazon.com/The-Frozen-Republic-Constitution-Paralyzing/dp/0156004941) Daniel Lazare envisioned a political crisis that would end with the Senate still in existence, but reduced to mostly ceremonial functions like the House of Lords. So mote it be. Intriguing, although I’d comment that the House of Lords isn’t purely ceremonial. It has a real impact on British lawmaking, but relies on convincing the Commons to its own viewpoint rather than coercing it into concessions. ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/25 "2012-05-23T22:00:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s what I keep saying and thinking when this topic comes up. Do people not realize how many flat-out morons and lunatic get elected to the House? There are a couple in the Senate and some Senators are badly out of touch, but there is a much larger proportion of out-to-lunch Michele Bachmanns and Cynthia McKinneys and Allen Wests and (at least on some issues) Ron Pauls in the House - people who not only are nowhere near the mainstream of political discourse, but who make no pretense at even trying to figure out where that is and just represent the small and deeply partisan areas that elected them. (And no, I don’t think the House should be abolished either.) I’m coming to the reluctant conclusion that filibuster needs to be changed or eliminated since apparently Senators are too partisan or dumb to help themselves at this point. IMHO, the levels of stupidity that occur in the House are a direct result of the bizarre redistricting methods we use; we actively encourage people running for Congress to be hyper-partisan by making so many “safe” districts. But then again, that’s also why the House is so much more racially diverse. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/26 "2012-05-23T23:05:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s what I keep saying and thinking when this topic comes up. Do people not realize how many flat-out morons and lunatic get elected to the House? Was it the lunatics in the House who took a public option off the table? Were they the ones who left dozens of federal judgeships vacant, the Federal Reserve without all of its governors, and Elizabeth Warren running for office instead of being in charge of the consumer protection agency that she pushed for? Can you remind me who it was that preserved the carried-interest tax break? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/27 "2012-05-24T00:03:17Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Speaking as a Brit, I’m a fan of bicameralism, as untrammeled rule by a single chamber is a recipe for bad . . . Why? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/28 "2012-05-24T00:05:25Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Someone pointed out that other advanced countries don’t have the Senate to worry with. Where? Like Western Europe? Somehow, I thought those types of arguments would not be made these days for self-evident reasons. They’re not so self-evident. A federal-bicameral national legislature has not insulated America from economic crises. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/29 "2012-05-24T01:30:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They’re not so self-evident. A federal-bicameral national legislature has not insulated America from economic crises. No it hasn’t but America is still running strong under the same Constitution for about 225 years.Western Europe is historically a basket-case on par with the Middle-East today that happened to have a good decades long run after WWII but is about about to go into semi or total meltdown. The U.S.will be hit by their follies but we will do much better and survive intact. Some economic crises are to be expected but let’s not model ourselves after countries that have never managed a good run as long as ours. It should be self-evident that the worship by some liberal types of Western European practices are completely inappropriate now in terms of facts and philosophy. Thank goodness I live in the U.S. under its stable Constitution. While the U.S. is still in the #1 position on lots of counts including stability, it is frankly retarded to initiate radical reforms when no other country has ever done it better. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/30 "2012-05-24T01:37:25Z")
Letting a bunch of elderly white Idahoans, Wyomingites, Utahns, North and South Dakotans, and Alaskans have many times the voting power of the rest of the country is probably a bit unbalanced. Perhaps the Senate should have the same number of members as the House, but also based on population. This would avoid gerrymandering, while simultaneously balancing out the excess power that the elderly white voters from the states with smaller populations. Why do I say elderly and white? AS we all know, they are more likely to 1. be registered to vote, and 2. actually have time to vote on a damn Tuesday. And the heck with voting on Tuesday. That’s just pandering to the elderly. Let’s vote on Saturday, or create a mandatory federal half-day off so people can vote. We need a way to dilute the voting power of the elderly. It’s not fair to the young. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/31 "2012-05-24T01:47:01Z")
What makes you think young people are going to vote if they half a day off instead of just going to the movies? It’s ridiculously easy to vote in the US for anyone who has half an interest in doing so. Most people in the US can either vote early in person or just vote by mail. Make it possible for everyone to vote by mail. Problem solved. I doubt that would result in any significant increase in the youth vote (or any other vote, for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/32 "2012-05-24T01:52:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What makes you think young people are going to vote if they half a day off instead of just going to the movies? It’s ridiculously easy to vote in the US for anyone who has half an interest in doing so. Most people in the US can either vote early in person or just vote by mail. Make it possible for everyone to vote by mail. Problem solved. I doubt that would result in any significant increase in the youth vote (or any other vote, for that matter). Do you not believe in incentives? If you had to take a day off work and wait in a huge line to buy a smoothie, do you think smoothie consumption would go down? Yes or no. If they had mail in smoothie chits, that would help of course. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/33 "2012-05-24T01:53:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Western Europe is historically a basket-case on par with the Middle-East today that happened to have a good decades long run after WWII but is about about to go into semi or total meltdown. When and if that happens, _then_ you can argue that it’s self-evident. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/34 "2012-05-24T02:00:12Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Do you not believe in incentives? > > If you had to take a day off work and wait in a huge line to buy a smoothie, do you think smoothie consumption would go down? Yes or no. > > If they had mail in smoothie chits, that would help of course. First of all, if voting is as important to you as getting a smoothie, then I don’t really care if you have trouble voting. Second, exactly how many people in the US have to take the whole day off to vote? Third, most people in the US can vote early or by mail. Fourth, I just said I’m happy to make that (the third thing) universal. Fifth, the idea that there are hordes of people who would vote if only it were easier is… naive, at best. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/35 "2012-05-24T02:06:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > First of all, if voting is as important to you as getting a smoothie, then I don’t really care if you have trouble voting. > > Second, exactly how many people in the US have to take the whole day off to vote? > > Third, most people in the US can vote early or by mail. > > Fourth, I just said I’m happy to make that (the third thing) universal. > > Fifth, the idea that there are hordes of people who would vote if only it were easier is… naive, at best. So you don’t believe incentives work? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/36 "2012-05-24T02:10:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So you don’t believe incentives work? I believe that incentives can work. But you’re not talking about an incentive. You’re saying there are significant disincentives to voting. I’m not seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/37 "2012-05-24T02:25:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > First of all, if voting is as important to you as getting a smoothie, then I don’t really care if you have trouble voting. > > Second, exactly how many people in the US have to take the whole day off to vote? > > Third, most people in the US can vote early or by mail. > > Fourth, I just said I’m happy to make that (the third thing) universal. > > Fifth, the idea that there are hordes of people who would vote if only it were easier is… naive, at best. Sixth, [there are still people **fighting** for voter-suppression.](http://www.thenation.com/blog/167648/true-vote-still-out-screw-vote) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/38 "2012-05-24T02:32:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sixth, [there are still people **fighting** for voter-suppression.](http://www.thenation.com/blog/167648/true-vote-still-out-screw-vote) I rarely read links without quotes. Too often they don’t say what the poster thinks they say. If you have something you want us to see, quote it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/39 "2012-05-24T02:43:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I rarely read links without quotes. Too often they don’t say what the poster thinks they say. If you have something you want us to see, quote it. > [@](#): > > Just two weeks ago a Rasmussen poll showed that 64 percent of Americans believe voter fraud exists. That poll was a major hit with the folks at the pro–voter ID True the Vote conference held over the weekend in Houston. No less than three speakers mentioned it to the crowd of roughly 200 attendees. According to conference host and True the Vote president Catherine Engelbrecht, thirty-two states were represented here for their third national summit, but it was clear most in the room were from Texas. Many appeared to be part of one Tea Party group or another (True the Vote is the 501c3 arm of the King Street Patriots, a Texas Tea Party group), and none seemed to be aware that they were far from losing the war on voting. > > They were stuck in a reality that was unfamiliar to anyone who’s been paying attention to voter issues. Speakers—among them Heritage Foundation’s Hans Von Spakovsky, Judicial Watch’s Tom Fitton and former title-challenged DOJ employee J. Christian Adams—spoke about the voter ID cause as if they were failing, as if sixteen states didn’t pass photo voter ID laws, most of them in just the past eighteen months. As if a federal court didn’t just validate a strict photo voter ID law in Arizona the week before the conference. > > \ > > If so many people believe voter fraud exists, it’s only because these groups have been successful in spreading myths while suppressing the truth, which is that you have a better chance of finding Michelle Obama in a Burger King than you will find voter fraud in a poll booth. All weekend they recycled anecdotes about voter registration problems—animated by James O’Keefe’s wannabe-Borat-but-missing-the-point films. Registration errors also occur at insignificant rates, and photo voter ID laws do little to address that. But people see the O’Keefe shenanigans or hear Moncrief talk about evil ACORN plots to take over the world by registering Jive S. Turkey to vote, and they become convinced that voter fraud exists. From [SourceWatch:](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=True_the_vote) > [@](#): > > **Voter Fraud and Voter I.D. Laws** > > True the Vote’s website portrays voter fraud as largely a Democractic party problem. It routinely runs stories on election fraud being perpetrated by “liberals,”[9] or “Democrats” [10] but has, to date, never run a story on Republican or Conservative instances of voter fraud. > > Like many groups pushing for strict Voter ID Laws, True the Vote claims that Voter Fraud is widespread and deliberate, and largely substantiates these claims through individual testimony. [11] Most serious studies conducted on voter fraud suggest that it is rare and when it does occur it is accidental. [12] [13] Englebrecht herself has testified before congress on behalf of the king street patriots, similar claims of mass voter fraud. [14] > > True the Vote argues for stronger Voter ID Laws in every State, and resists attempts to relax or remove Voter ID laws. On December 13th, 2011, they held a rally in Austen Texas to support a stricter ID law passed earlier that year. [15] On January 20th, 2011 they held a similar rally to protest the invalidation of a South Carolina law requiring picture ID’s at the polls (The Justice Department is empowered to invalidate voting laws in South Carolina due to a provision in the 1965 Voting Rights Act.) Both Rallies strongly criticized Attorney General Eric Holder. > > In 2011, True the Vote posted an article on its website claiming that US attorney General Eric Holder supported a plan by the NAACP “to involve the United Nations in U.S. elections.” referencing a protest the NAACP held across the street from the UN in December of 2011, and a related petition filed with the UN. Holder gave the protest and the petition no formal support, but True the Vote’s press release made it seem like Holder was advocating direct UN involvement in American elections, asking "“Are you ready to have U.N. blue helmets outside your polling place?” This article earned True the Vote a “pants on fire” rating from [Politifact.com](http://Politifact.com). [16] Blue Helmets resembling those worn by the UN Peacekeeping forces are now commonly worn at True the Vote rallies. > > **2011-2012 Wisconsin Recall Effort** > > In 2012, True the Vote joined several other Tea Party groups in “Verify the Recall”, an effort that opposes the 2012 recall of Wisconsin governor Scott Walker. True the Vote provided software which it had previously applied to check signatures in petitions in Texas. [17] In order to electronically check over 1 million petition signatures, which had previously been posted online by Wisconsin’s Government Accountability Board [18] True the Vote recruited thousands of volunteers (mostly out of state) to manually enter signatures into True the Vote’s electronic database. True the Vote claims to have recruited over 13,000 volunteers. [19] True the Vote has stated that this effort is both “nonpartisan” [20] and “not about politics” [21] but their website has run at least two stories suggesting that fraud is “rampant” in the recall effort, and frame the effort as decidedly political. In their own words “we should not believe the claims of union-supporters and anti-Walker operatives who say that they collected more than one million signatures on petitions to recall Governor Scott Walker.” [22]. > > On February 28th, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker called for the data gathered by the “Verify the Recall” effort to be used as an official challenge of the recall.[23] This data was gathered and compiled entirely by True the Vote. True the Vote’s executive summary claimed that only 534,865 signatures gathered during the recall effort were valid. [24]. There is evidence that True the Vote used a flawed process to discount signatures on the ballot, and that most of the signatures they discounted are, in fact, accurate.[25] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800/40 "2012-05-24T02:47:41Z")
[Furthermore (TTV press release):](http://news.yahoo.com/true-vote-wisconsin-coalition-partners-election-observer-training-195409434.html) > [@](#): > > HOUSTON, May 16, 2012 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ – The following is being released by True the Vote: > > WHO: Coming on the heels of its successful National Summit in April 2012, True the Vote will provide Election Observer Training sessions in eight locations throughout Wisconsin on Saturday, May 19, 2012 in advance of the June 5th, 2012 recall elections of Governor Scott Walker. > > WHAT: True the Vote will partner with a coalition of Patriotic groups across the state to train 1,000 election observers for Wisconsin’s June 5th Recall Election and ensure that their election process is free and fair. Are these going to be the kind of “election observers” who challenge would-be voters with [caging lists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caging_list)? We’ll see. And we’ll see **whom** they challenge. Should get interesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-of-scrapping-the-constitution-how-do-we-get-rid-of-the-u-s-senate/622800.md?page=3)