# Short story about modern Vandals and their lack of written history **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [May 19, 2021, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513 "2021-05-19T22:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/1 "2021-05-19T22:26:50Z")
A long time a go, I read a short story – probably in a science-fiction anthology, but not necessarily – about a student in a college history class confronting her professor about the relationship between Rome and the Vandals. The professor had adverted to a motto about Rome being the source of strength, portrayed the Vandals negatively, and assumed that the Vandals had disappeared from history. The student pointed out that, because the Vandals relied on oral rather than written history, we were getting only one side of the story, and that the Vandals had disappeared only from written history. The ending implied that the student herself belonged to a thriving Vandal tradition that was invisible to modern culture. Can anyone help identify the story? I have been looking for it for ages but haven’t run across it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/2 "2021-05-20T00:30:22Z")
The Liberation of Rome, by Robin Hemley? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/3 "2021-05-20T01:13:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The Liberation of Rome, by Robin Hemley Described here [Rome With Liberty - The Haven](http://energistic.weebly.com/rome-with-liberty.html) Having a hard time finding a reference to where it was published. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/4 "2021-05-20T01:16:53Z")
It’s in “Laughing Matters” edited by Marvin Diogenes [Laughing Matters, a Longman Topics Reader - Marvin Diogenes - Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=9FkbAQAAIAAJ&q=Radlisch+%22laughing+matters%22&dq=Radlisch+%22laughing+matters%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZ2J6Ki9fwAhU4F1kFHQ8XBB0Q6AEwAHoECAAQAg) ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/5 "2021-05-20T02:41:47Z")
Bingo! Thank you, The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper and Andy\_L. Special thanks to Andy\_L for actually sourcing the story; I just ordered the book. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/6 "2021-05-20T11:44:24Z")
Glad to help ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/7 "2021-05-20T13:36:23Z")
It’s a pity the basic premise is wrong. 🙂 The idea that the Vandals were crude barbarians isn’t correct. The Vandals were Christians, and at least the upper classes of the Vandals generally spoke Latin as well as their own language, and were literate. Some works by Vandal poets (in Latin) survives. In general, administration in the Vandal Kingdom was little different from Roman administration, and many Roman bureaucrats remained in place. Educational and legal systems continued. The Roman tax system and records continued with little change. From _The Vandals_ by Andrew Merrills, Richard Miles (2009): > Within North Africa, the consequences of the Vandal occupation were at once dramatic and surprisingly short lived. … Many networks of power remained in place. The Vandal occupation was largely limited to the fertile valleys around Carthage, and the presence in Byzacena and Numidia was probably largely limited to military garrisons and estates held in the name of the Hasding family. In these regions, still rich agricultural and pastoral lands, the change of government in Carthage meant relatively little. Provincial government remained in the hands of the senatorial aristocracy (at least of those who had not flown at the coming of the barbarians), and municipal government, too, remained active. Where change came in these regions it was not from the Vandals, but from the emergence of new – rival – centres of political activity on the periphery of the Vandal kingdom. Moorish rulers provided local aristocracies with new channels for political and economic development. > > Among these changes, the inhabitants of North Africa continued to live alongside one another in (relative) peace and (general) prosperity. The political systems functioned, educational and legal structures remained strong. These relations did occasionally descend into violence and persecution, as is well known, but the fault lines within this society did not run simply along the ethnic boundary between ‘Vandal’ and ‘Roman’. Geiseric and Huneric victimized Vandals as well as Romans, Arians as well as Catholics. Romano-Africans could earn promotion within the Vandal court and municipal aristocracy, just as Vandals could find themselves ostracised for political, religious or personal reasons. But the overall impression of the kingdom of Vandal Carthage is of integration under a strong – and evolving – form of kingship. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/8 "2021-05-20T14:10:32Z")
The short story is mentioned in the “Legacy” section of the wikipedia article on the Vandals: > **[Vandals | Legacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals#Legacy)** > > Since the Middle Ages, kings of Denmark were styled "King of Denmark, the Goths and the Wends", the Wends being a group of West Slavs formerly living in Mecklenburg and eastern Holstein in modern Germany. The title "King of the Wends" is translated as vandalorum rex in Latin. The title was shortened to "King of Denmark" in 1972. Starting in 1540, Swedish kings (following Denmark) were styled Suecorum, Gothorum et Vandalorum Rex ("King of the Swedes, Geats, and Wends"). Carl XVI Gustaf dro The mod... ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2021, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/9 "2021-05-26T02:06:06Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > It’s in “Laughing Matters” edited by Marvin Diogenes [Laughing Matters ( a Longman Topics Reader) - Marvin Diogenes - Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=9FkbAQAAIAAJ&q=Radlisch+%22laughing+matters%22&dq=Radlisch+%22laughing+matters%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZ2J6Ki9fwAhU4F1kFHQ8XBB0Q6AEwAHoECAAQAg) Laughing Matters contains a short excerpt from the story, within an essay by Robin Hemley titled “Relaxing the Rules of Reason,” but not the complete story. But I think that I have found the complete story in the anthology Sudden Fiction (Continued): 60 New Short-Short Stories, edited by Robert Shapard and James Thomas ([https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393313425/ref=ppx\_yo\_dt\_b\_asin\_title\_o01\_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393313425/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)). I should know in a couple days. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2021, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/10 "2021-05-26T02:41:25Z")
Sorry about that - using Google “inside book” search its hard to tell an excerpt from the real thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2021, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/11 "2021-05-27T14:40:49Z")
In a novelization of one of the Doctor Who episodes, (I can’t remember which one, or if the line in the the screenplay), the Doctor says, “The Vandals were quite decent chaps.” I think it was the Third Doctor. I know that he didn’t meet any Vandals in the episode, just that someone (Sarah Jane?) said that some vandals had caused damage. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2021, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/12 "2021-05-27T15:12:13Z")
> [@brianmelendez](#): > > > [@Andy\_L](#): > > > > It’s in “Laughing Matters” edited by Marvin Diogenes [Laughing Matters ( a Longman Topics Reader) - Marvin Diogenes - Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=9FkbAQAAIAAJ&q=Radlisch+%22laughing+matters%22&dq=Radlisch+%22laughing+matters%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZ2J6Ki9fwAhU4F1kFHQ8XBB0Q6AEwAHoECAAQAg) > > Laughing Matters contains a short excerpt from the story, within an essay by Robin Hemley titled “Relaxing the Rules of Reason,” but not the complete story. But I think that I have found the complete story in the anthology Sudden Fiction (Continued): 60 New Short-Short Stories, edited by Robert Shapard and James Thomas ([Sudden Fiction (Continued): 60 New Short-Short Stories: Shapard, Robert, Thomas, James: 9780393313420: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393313425/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)). I should know in a couple days. Confirmed: it’s in Sudden Fiction (Continued). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/13 "2021-05-27T16:17:54Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > In a novelization of one of the Doctor Who episodes, (I can’t remember which one, or if the line in the the screenplay), the Doctor says, “The Vandals were quite decent chaps.” > > I think it was the Third Doctor. _Invasion of the Dinosaurs_. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/14 "2021-05-27T18:00:16Z")
Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/short-story-about-modern-vandals-and-their-lack-of-written-history/942513/15 "2021-05-27T21:22:47Z")
De nada. (Incidentally, the gag there is that he of all people can’t find a working _phone box_, which sparks her comment and his reply.)