# Shoshana Roberts, a street walker (10 hours,) films herself being "harassed." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930 "2014-10-29T20:25:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/241 "2014-10-30T18:42:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I would not mind in the slightest if I walked down the street during a Pride event and had gay men say, “Hello,” or “Afternoon!” to me. Or straight men. Or gay women. Or bisexual men. Or men who identify as straight except after a few beers. For one thing, the sort of “carnivalesque” atmosphere of a Pride event is not the same situation as an ordinary busy public street. For another, if you were receiving a barrage of unsought and unwanted attention pretty much every time you went anywhere in public, ranging from friendly “Hellos” to explicitly obscene propositions to shouted abuse from people whose advances you ignored, then yes, you **WOULD** start to mind even the milder greetings. Dumb troll still dumb and still incapable of valid analogies. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/242 "2014-10-30T18:43:21Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > On the west coast it’s quite common to greet strangers that way, and honestly, I’ve never heard a woman complain about being harassed because some man smiled and said “hello” to her. I, of course, agree, and now the problem is to convince **Kimstu** – who obviously has extensive skills at politeness – that perhaps the proposed far-reaching rule is too broad. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/243 "2014-10-30T18:46:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Make up your mind, doofus. Are you claiming that women who walk down a busy public street dressed in attractive normal clothing and minding their own business “share some responsibility” for the fact that they are repeatedly and constantly harassed by men, or aren’t you? No. I’m saying that someone who does make that claim is not also claiming that men are entitled to harass them in that circumstance. This is not really anything more than I’ve said before, so I don’t have a great deal of confidence that you’ll be capable of understanding it this time. Perhaps if you dialed down the outrage a bit. But then, I don’t know if you’re capable of that either. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/244 "2014-10-30T18:46:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > For one thing, the sort of “carnivalesque” atmosphere of a Pride event is not the same situation as an ordinary busy public street. > > For another, if you were receiving a barrage of unsought and unwanted attention pretty much every time you went anywhere in public, ranging from friendly “Hellos” to explicitly obscene propositions to shouted abuse from people whose advances you ignored, then yes, you **WOULD** start to mind even the milder greetings. > > Dumb troll still dumb and still incapable of valid analogies. The problem remains that I don’t accept your authority to define social norms. Don’t me wrong: you’re very convincing with your panoply of insults, and I admit that this is the kind of tactic that usually sways people. But for some bizarre reason, I find myself unmoved by your vicious attacks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/245 "2014-10-30T18:47:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I, of course, agree, and now the problem is to convince **Kimstu** – who obviously has extensive skills at politeness – that perhaps the proposed far-reaching rule is too broad. Considering that your rule will result in some women feeling threatened or uncomfortable, I think the “don’t initiate greetings with strange women on the streets of crowded cities” rule is better. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/246 "2014-10-30T18:48:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The problem remains that I don’t accept your authority to define social norms. Don’t me wrong: you’re very convincing with your panoply of insults, and I admit that this is the kind of tactic that usually sways people. But for some bizarre reason, I find myself unmoved by your vicious attacks. Vicious? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/247 "2014-10-30T18:49:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering that your rule will result in some women feeling threatened or uncomfortable, I think the “don’t initiate greetings with strange women on the streets of crowded cities” rule is better. What’s the population density at which your rule would apply? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/248 "2014-10-30T18:49:44Z")
So on the one hand, we have actual flesh and blood women saying behavior X is uncool and on the other, we have Bricker, et al explaining why if anything they’re the ones being imposed upon here. Yeah, I wonder which group I’m going to weigh more heavily in my determinations of appropriate actions. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/249 "2014-10-30T18:50:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > For one thing, the sort of “carnivalesque” atmosphere of a Pride event is not the same situation as an ordinary busy public street. > > For another, if you were receiving a barrage of unsought and unwanted attention pretty much every time you went anywhere in public, ranging from friendly “Hellos” to explicitly obscene propositions to shouted abuse from people whose advances you ignored, then yes, you **WOULD** start to mind even the milder greetings. > > Dumb troll still dumb and still incapable of valid analogies. You know, I was with you until you went to the point where even saying “Hello” is some sort of threatening act. When I do so, in no way am I attempting to corner a person into conversation. It’s merely acknowledging their existence, and, presuming they aren’t walking purposefully somewhere, I think it’s part of being a member of society. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/250 "2014-10-30T18:52:46Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Vicious? Yes. The word means “deliberately cruel or violent.” Obviously not violent, but I think “deliberately cruel,” is appropriate. Especially considering the fact that we’re discussing what constitutes impolite behavior. Is calling me a “dumb troll,” more or less cruel than a man nodding and saying “Morning!” to a woman as they pass each other? I’d say it’s quite a bit crueler. Wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/251 "2014-10-30T18:54:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What’s the population density at which your rule would apply? Something greater than infintesimal, I suppose. Something like “if I greet everyone I see during a day of walking around Manhattan, am I likely to cause any women to feel threatened and/or uncomfortable?”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/252 "2014-10-30T18:54:38Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > On the west coast it’s quite common to greet strangers that way Nobody said it wasn’t common for strangers to _greet_ each other that way: as in, two strangers happen to encounter each other or otherwise notice each other’s presence, and they smile and say “Hi”. What’s not good etiquette on the west coast or anywhere else is for somebody to try to attract the attention of a woman walking down a busy street and paying no attention to them, solely for the purpose of intruding themselves on her notice with a greeting, a compliment, a lewd proposition or anything else. > [@Bricker](#): > > I, of course, agree, and now the problem is to convince Kimstu – who obviously has extensive skills at politeness – that perhaps the proposed far-reaching rule is too broad. The problem is to help you overcome your abysmal reading comprehension, but it’s a problem that Dopers over the decades have struggled with in vain, so I don’t expect I’ll have any better luck with it this time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/253 "2014-10-30T18:55:34Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > You know, I was with you until you went to the point where even saying “Hello” is some sort of threatening act. When I do so, in no way am I attempting to corner a person into conversation. It’s merely acknowledging their existence, and, presuming they aren’t walking purposefully somewhere, I think it’s part of being a member of society. “Hello” probably isn’t a huge deal, and isn’t what most of the complaints are about. But in a crowded city, or public transportation, even that might make someone feel threatened or uncomfortable, so I refrain from doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/254 "2014-10-30T18:55:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The problem remains that I don’t accept your authority to define social norms. The problem for you is that the “your” in this sentence is very much plural, and representative of decent society in general. If you don’t accept the plural “your” authority to define social norms… well, as far as I know that shack the Unabomber used to live in is still unoccupied. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/255 "2014-10-30T18:57:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. The word means “deliberately cruel or violent.” Obviously not violent, but I think “deliberately cruel,” is appropriate. > > Especially considering the fact that we’re discussing what constitutes impolite behavior. > > Is calling me a “dumb troll,” more or less cruel than a man nodding and saying “Morning!” to a woman as they pass each other? > > I’d say it’s quite a bit crueler. Wouldn’t you? IMO anyone who posts politically incorrect opinions on a MB is provoking the hotblooded but feebleminded masses, and shares some responsibility for any vicious attacks that come his way. Which is not to say that the others are right for attacking him either. But he shares responsibility. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/256 "2014-10-30T18:59:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nobody said it wasn’t common for strangers to _greet_ each other that way: as in, two strangers happen to encounter each other or otherwise notice each other’s presence, and they smile and say “Hi”. > > What’s not good etiquette on the west coast or anywhere else is for somebody to try to attract the attention of a woman walking down a busy street and paying no attention to them, solely for the purpose of intruding themselves on her notice with a greeting, a compliment, a lewd proposition or anything else. > The problem is to help you overcome your abysmal reading comprehension, but it’s a problem that Dopers over the decades have struggled with in vain, so I don’t expect I’ll have any better luck with it this time. Since there seems to be widespread agreement that lewd propositions and compliments are impermissible, I wonder why you continue to mention them. So far as I can discern, the issue is pretty narrowly focused on the short, polite greeting. And to restate my argument: I don’t agree that a short, polite nod and greeting is objectionable by general social norms in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/257 "2014-10-30T19:00:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But for some bizarre reason, I find myself unmoved by your vicious attacks. Typical troll behavior: _“oooh, look look look how you’re being so nasty to me but it doesn’t bother me, la la la! I will keep on pointing out your insulting me because I love the attention!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/258 "2014-10-30T19:03:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. The word means “deliberately cruel or violent.” Obviously not violent, but I think “deliberately cruel,” is appropriate. > > Especially considering the fact that we’re discussing what constitutes impolite behavior. > > Is calling me a “dumb troll,” more or less cruel than a man nodding and saying “Morning!” to a woman as they pass each other? I wouldn’t personally say that calling someone a “dumb troll” was necessarily cruel. Insulting, sure. Cruel to me implies something beyond merely insulting; an overweening callousness. But that’s just my thoughts. Likewise “Morning!” isn’t necessarily cruel but could be, though there’s certainly a lack of the same inherent insulting nature to the word alone. > [@](#): > > I’d say it’s quite a bit crueler. Wouldn’t you? No. It would depend on the context. Why have you made this a comparative question, though? What is the point behind asking whether I consider one or the other crueler? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/259 "2014-10-30T19:04:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Typical troll behavior: _“oooh, look look look how you’re being so nasty to me but it doesn’t bother me, la la la! I will keep on pointing out your insulting me because I love the attention!”_ This is not a rebuttal of my argument – at least not one remarkable for its cogency. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/260 "2014-10-30T19:06:43Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I wouldn’t personally say that calling someone a “dumb troll” was necessarily cruel. Insulting, sure. Cruel to me implies something beyond merely insulting; an overweening callousness. But that’s just my thoughts. Likewise “Morning!” isn’t necessarily cruel but could be, though there’s certainly a lack of the same inherent insulting nature to the word alone. No. It would depend on the context. > > Why have you made this a comparative question, though? What is the point behind asking whether I consider one or the other crueler? I’m drawing a contrast between the behavior **Kimstu** inveighs against and the behavior **Kimstu** is engaging in, in an effort to support my characterization of the latter as “cruel” – certainly there are crueler things in life, in other words, but it’s fair to call what was said to me “cruel,” especially given the contrast with the very behavior we’re debating. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=14)