# Shoshana Roberts, a street walker (10 hours,) films herself being "harassed." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930 "2014-10-29T20:25:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/281 "2014-10-30T19:35:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Because of the old etiquette principle “the roof constitutes the introduction”. That is, if you encounter somebody as fellow participants in a social gathering of some kind, even if you have never met before, you are automatically promoted from “random complete strangers” to “slightly acquainted strangers with identified common interest or social connection”. That’s weird. What about outdoor settings with no roof? > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > The purpose of a book club is conversation and social interaction in general. That’s not (necessarily) true of walking down a street. Some people will go to a book club and are not interested in being hit on. Some subset of that group will be offended if it happens. Would you think that it is inappropriate to hit on people at a book club then (assume first attempt)? I don’t understand it myself, but things like grinder and tinder exist - some people are into that. What outlet for that existed before smartphones? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/282 "2014-10-30T19:37:16Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > If a person looks to be on their way somewhere, I find it incredibly improper to attempt to delay or engage them. Now, if we are walking in opposite directions, I see nothing wrong with a polite nod and maybe a “hello,” so long as it is done in passing without any intent of attempting to block or obstruct the other person. As you noted above, we’re saying the same thing, and I’m not sure why my saying it in italics bothered you. Namely, **if** two strangers **encounter** each other, i.e., are in a situation where they’ll notice each other’s presence (which is what I think you mean by the “walking in opposite directions” bit), then yes, as I’ve been saying all along, there’s nothing wrong with a brief casual greeting. But if somebody **isn’t** noticing you and has no reason to notice you, it’s rude to try to **make** them notice you, even in a very fleeting way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/283 "2014-10-30T19:37:27Z")
> [@Bouncer](#): > > Well then I guess I’m as insane as Camille Paglia, because I’m in agreement with her. This doesn’t count in your favor. > [@](#): > > Choices have consequences. What choice? To dress in normal clothes and walk down the street while female? Why should that have any negative consequences? > [@](#): > > I note that Ms Paglia makes a point of wearing gender neutral clothing which doesn’t accentuate the female lines of her body. SHE seems to be able to move about without drawing undue attention. /shrug Seriously, citing Camille Paglia is not going to help you here. > [@](#): > > To me the argument is apparently this: You want to be able to showcase your body in public, and yet condemn others for noticing you showcasing your body. Bullshit. How is walking down the street in normal clothing “showcasing your body”? \ > [@](#): > > It’s about a fundamental misconception that these responses are alterable in a simple way and that you can change men by complaint and protest. Men (and society at large) has changed significantly in recent decades and centuries. Some things that were acceptable 30 years ago no longer are, and men (and women) have survived and adapted. > [@](#): > > It’s not, and you can’t. You’re fighting biology and it has a couple hundred thousand years head start on you. Complete bullshit – this stuff has changed drastically in history, and there’s no reason to believe it won’t continue to change. > [@](#): > > Call me all the names you like. But at least be honest about your argument. “I should be able to wear whatever I want without any consequences from the opposite sex!” (stamp foot). How about “I should be able to wear normal clothing and walk down the street and not be treated disrespectfully”? How the fuck can you possibly associate wearing normal clothes with “showcasing one’s body”? > [@](#): > > It’s ridiculous, and is only arguable at all _because_ this society is far more tolerant of social experimentation than much of the rest of the world. And the fact that the actress wasn’t touched, once, in ten hours, by ANY of the “cat-callers” speaks volumes to how tolerant the city is towards her choosing a showcasing mode of dress. So because she wasn’t fucking _sexually assaulted_, that means she was treated fine? Sorry, but the bar should be a bit higher. And your focus on her clothing as a showcase is completely ridiculous. If she was showcasing, then that means it’s nearly impossible for a woman to _not_ “showcase her body” without wearing a fucking burqa. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/284 "2014-10-30T19:39:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As you noted above, we’re saying the same thing, and I’m not sure why my saying it in italics bothered you. > > Namely, **if** two strangers **encounter** each other, i.e., are in a situation where they’ll notice each other’s presence (which is what I think you mean by the “walking in opposite directions” bit), then yes, as I’ve been saying all along, there’s nothing wrong with a brief casual greeting. > > But if somebody **isn’t** noticing you and has no reason to notice you, it’s rude to try to **make** them notice you, even in a very fleeting way. I agree with you there. It was when the slippery slope led us to “someone to whom ‘hello’ is said many times a day has a right to feel harassed by that simple greeting over time” that I took issue. The italics just seemed… unnecessary and condescending, especially when I was trying to support your original statement. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/285 "2014-10-30T19:43:05Z")
I’m glad the misogyny brigade is in full force for another round. I’m so glad I don’t live anywhere near people who don’t understand not to do something that others don’t like. Who knew so many Dopers failed kindergarten? Off to put a couple of dipshit lying trolls on ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/286 "2014-10-30T19:46:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I understand that this is the claim you’re making. > > I don’t agree with its truth. Let’s say there is a controversy about whether it is offensive to call a minority group by a particular name, such as Jap, redskin, Oriental, etc. On one hand, there is a member of the affected community who states that they take offense if they were called by that name. On the other hand, there is a person who is not a member of that community who believes that the term is not offensive and that it is unreasonable for the first person to take offense. How do you, **Bricker** , resolve the matter of whether you should use the term in question? Personally, I give significant deference to the views of the first person, because they are the ones who have a stake in the matter. Their claim of offense would have to be quite unreasonable for me not to take their views seriously. In this case, you are putting yourself in the role of the unaffected person claiming that the first person is unreasonable to take offense. Are you really that confident that many women are being unreasonable when they believe they are treated like sexual objects when they walk down a city street minding their own business? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/287 "2014-10-30T19:48:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree with this. Is there any support you have for the claim beyond repeating it again and calling me bad names? I would say that, in NYC, the people who try to randomly the attention of women walking down the street (by catcalls, “Hey there”, or honking their horns) are assholes. I don’t have any friends who do that (although I do have friends who are assholes in other ways, to be sure) and I would be really taken aback if someone I knew interacted with a strange woman that way. I’m sure it’s different elsewhere. If you want to be associated with those assholes, be my guest. My impression of you from this MB is that you’re generally polite, generally civil. I would be really taken aback if, were we to meet in person and were walking down the street in NYC together, you would engage in random comments to female strangers on the street. I think you’re really missing the context of how people behave on the streets of NY. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/288 "2014-10-30T19:50:03Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Some people will go to a book club and are not interested in being hit on. Some subset of that group will be offended if it happens. Would you think that it is inappropriate to hit on people at a book club then (assume first attempt)? Absent context, I couldn’t say. As a general statement? Not necessarily, no. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/289 "2014-10-30T19:51:15Z")
I’m really stunned by the number of people insisting she was somehow showing off her body. I could maybe somewhat understand if she was dressed like she was going to a Nicki Minaj concert or for a night out clubbing, but plenty of the women my work regularly come in dressed like that. Honestly, I’m pretty sure that the men who behaved that way would have been just as obnoxious(and no they weren’t all equally obnoxious) would have done so regardless of how she was dressed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/290 "2014-10-30T19:51:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let’s say there is a controversy about whether it is offensive to call a minority group by a particular name, such as Jap, redskin, Oriental, etc. On one hand, there is a member of the affected community who states that they take offense if they were called by that name. On the other hand, there is a person who is not a member of that community who believes that the term is not offensive and that it is unreasonable for the first person to take offense. > > How do you, **Bricker** , resolve the matter of whether you should use the term in question? Personally, I give significant deference to the views of the first person, because they are the ones who have a stake in the matter. Their claim of offense would have to be quite unreasonable for me not to take their views seriously. But in this matter, you also have the situation of OTHER members of the community who don’t agree with the member of the community who is taking offense. So it;s not simply a question of giving deference to the member of the community as opposed to an observer; it’s that the community itself does not speak with a unified voice on the issue. > [@](#): > > In this case, you are putting yourself in the role of the unaffected person claiming that the first person is unreasonable to take offense. Are you really that confident that many women are being unreasonable when they believe they are treated like sexual objects when they walk down a city street minding their own business? This is a poor question, because it conflates into one thing many behaviors which I agree are unconscionable. You didn’t ask about the particular behavior at issue here: you asked, “…believe they are treated like sexual objects when they walk down a city street minding their own business?” So the real answer is: I agree with them, if the “treatment” is hearing “Hey baby,” “You look fine, mama,” or “What’s the matter? Stuck up? Won’t talk?” But I don’t agree with them if the behavior in question is a polite nod in passing, accompanied with a “Morning!” or “Hello.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/291 "2014-10-30T19:55:22Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That’s weird. What about outdoor settings with no roof? Sorry, I guess the maxim-coining etiquetteers of the past were not sufficiently conscious of the depths of plodding literalism to which their future public might sink. The “roof” in the context of “the roof constitutes the introduction” is just a metaphor for “social setting” in general: i.e., the fact of shared participation in an event designed for social interaction. Rest assured that the maxim remains just as valid at an outdoor wedding or community beach cleanup day as it does at a book club meeting or wine and cheese social under an actual physical roof. (Note, however, that it does **not** necessarily apply to concerts, either outdoor or indoor, or other such events where the chief goal is for individual ticket-purchasers to enjoy the entertainment provided by performers rather than to interact with one another.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/292 "2014-10-30T19:58:28Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I would say that, in NYC, the people who try to randomly the attention of women walking down the street (by catcalls, “Hey there”, or honking their horns) are assholes. I don’t have any friends who do that (although I do have friends who are assholes in other ways, to be sure) and I would be really taken aback if someone I knew interacted with a strange woman that way. > > I’m sure it’s different elsewhere. > > If you want to be associated with those assholes, be my guest. My impression of you from this MB is that you’re generally polite, generally civil. I would be really taken aback if, were we to meet in person and were walking down the street in NYC together, you would engage in random comments to female strangers on the street. > > I think you’re really missing the context of how people behave on the streets of NY. I’ve already shared that I have visited NYC as a tourist many times, and I _do_ nod and say hello to passersby of both genders. I’m reminded of a line from one of the chorus members in “Rent,” during the “Life Support,” scene: > [@](#): > > I’m a New Yorker. Fear is my life. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/293 "2014-10-30T20:02:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m really stunned by the number of people insisting she was somehow showing off her body. I could maybe somewhat understand if she was dressed like she was going to a Nicki Minaj concert or for a night out clubbing, but plenty of the women my work regularly come in dressed like that. > > Honestly, I’m pretty sure that the men who behaved that way would have been just as obnoxious(and no they weren’t all equally obnoxious) would have done so regardless of how she was dressed. I am too. To say that this woman was dressed provocatively is laughable. If anything, she DOWNPLAYED her looks in that video. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/294 "2014-10-30T20:03:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sorry, I guess the maxim-coining etiquetteers of the past were not sufficiently conscious of the depths of plodding literalism to which their future public might sink. > > The “roof” in the context of “the roof constitutes the introduction” is just a metaphor for “social setting” in general: i.e., the fact of shared participation in an event designed for social interaction. > > Rest assured that the maxim remains just as valid at an outdoor wedding or community beach cleanup day as it does at a book club meeting or wine and cheese social under an actual physical roof. (Note, however, that it does **not** necessarily apply to concerts, either outdoor or indoor, or other such events where the chief goal is for individual ticket-purchasers to enjoy the entertainment provided by performers rather than to interact with one another.) What about in the bar area at Chili’s during happy hour? (need answer fast) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/295 "2014-10-30T20:06:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I understand that this is the claim you’re making. > > I don’t agree with its truth. When the woman (as stipulated per hypothesis) is not paying attention to the people around her, not making eye contact, just walking through, etc, then to nod at her and say “hello” is to insist on an interaction she has not consented to. You may hesitate at “insist,” but you shouldn’t. By not making eye contact, walking through without showing attention to people (except, of course, in the sense that one attends to the physical location of others to avoid colliding) and so on, she has communicated “I am not here to interact.” By saying hello, you’re initiating an interaction with someone who has already communicated that they are not there to interact. This is insistence, by definition. To be the recipient of such insistence is justifiably off-putting. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/296 "2014-10-30T20:06:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I don’t agree with them if the behavior in question is a polite nod in passing, accompanied with a “Morning!” or “Hello.” Honestly, I’d consider that rude too, in some situations. If my body language said “Leave me the fuck alone, it’s early” as I imagine it does most mornings, I’d be annoyed by your greeting. The purpose of my body language is to avoid that; I’d feel as though you were deliberately choosing to ignore my own feelings in the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/297 "2014-10-30T20:13:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But in this matter, you also have the situation of OTHER members of the community who don’t agree with the member of the community who is taking offense. > > So it;s not simply a question of giving deference to the member of the community as opposed to an observer; it’s that the community itself does not speak with a unified voice on the issue. I think you might have missed the point of the example. The question at issue isn’t who speaks for the community. The question is which of the two individuals it’s appropriate to show more deference to. The one who doesn’t care about the epithet presumably could take it or leave it. The one who _does_ meanwhile, feels hurt when it is used. On balance, then, we should not use the epithet. Sure it’s kind of a utilitarian argument but this seems like a case where that kind of reasoning is definitely appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/298 "2014-10-30T20:16:56Z")
“Dear nice guys who just want to say hi: the assholes ruined it for you. Police your asshole friends and then maybe we can talk in five years.” - Daily Show correspondent Jessica Williams on Twitter ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/299 "2014-10-30T20:19:44Z")
Question for female Dopers in cities: Do you also get dozens of greetings or catcalls per 10 hours of walking outdoors? If no, why do certain people? Is this statistically typical? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/300 "2014-10-30T20:21:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Who are you addressing with this smug condenscending tone? People like the OP. And people like you, who act with faux outrage that there doesn’t seem to be anyone who has issues with what the actress and the activist group did [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=16)