# Shoshana Roberts, a street walker (10 hours,) films herself being "harassed." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930 "2014-10-29T20:25:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/361 "2014-10-30T22:42:55Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > So, honestly, in your situation, what’s the difference between your “quick smile and nod,” and me doing the same, but adding “hi?” I honestly don’t see much of a difference. At that point, you’ve already acknowledged them and it’s not as if you are attempting to engage them in conversation. > > So, how does that one word make all the difference? I just can’t see that as having so much importance that it goes from a pleasant interaction to something that would rattle a person. It might not make a huge difference, but some women have said that the greeting makes them feel uncomfortable, so I see no reason to continue with it. No one I know has said anything about a smile and a nod, so I stuck with that. Not a big deal. Some folks told me something bothered them – it cost me nothing to stop – so I stopped. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/362 "2014-10-30T22:50:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If a bunch of people told you that it threatened them, or that it made them feel uncomfortable, then you should take it off if you have any interest in not making them feel uncomfortable. In this instance, a bunch of people have said “this behavior makes me feel uncomfortable”. Because the behavior is not necessary, and does me no benefit, I stop this behavior. You know, we see a real life example of this going on right now with the nurse they’d quarantined for Ebola. Despite how it makes everyone else that’s concerned about it feels, she doesn’t give a shit. She can’t be inconvenienced when it’s even in her best interests (from crackpots, in my estimation). So, if you’re talking about someone who doesn’t even have the good sense to _protect themselves_ from possible harm, how on earth could you get through to these guys when they have such a view of women in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/363 "2014-10-30T22:59:58Z")
Local culture is not universally the same. If you’re not sure how welcome your ‘polite’ comments really are, how about trying an experiment! Next time you go out, put on a neutral smile, and look around, making fleeting eye contact with passers by. Open body language. If people you pass smile, nod or whatever,- congratulations! You live in an area where a friendly greeting really is seen as just a friendly greeting! If you try this experiment and people (especially women) look away or through you, then yes, a greeting will likely come across as odd and potentially threatening. I’m not exactly being sarcastic- as well as living in a little village where it was expected to greet everyone as you passed them, I’ve lived in two English cities, one very briefly, one where I live now. In the first city (not coincidentally, the one I left), I got heckled and catcalled every single damn time I left the house (and I mean every single time, it was sort of an ongoing challenge to see if I could have any effect by dress or manner. Wearing headphones seemed to be the best- I still got yelled at by as many guys, but they tended to give up sooner if they thought I couldn’t hear). Living there, yeah, any guy who spoke to me without a good reason was someone to be wary of. Where I live now, it’s pretty common, though far from universal, to nod or say hi when passing, or when sharing a bus shelter or something. A simple hi, or ‘lovely weather’ type comment is far more likely to simply be a friendly comment here, so I’m far more likely to react as such. I’m not saying we don’t get catcallers, but they’re rarer, and mainly in certain areas, which again I walk through with headphones on. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/364 "2014-10-30T23:54:10Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > Saying hello and being a polite person is a social norm. If it makes you uncomfortable when I walk past you and I just nod, smile and say hi (purely as acknowledgement and not intended to initiate any conversation), then I’d say the problem rests with you, not me. Nodding, smiling, and saying hi to strangers isn’t polite.\* The proof of this lies in the fact that if you didn’t do it, no one would notice or care, whereas when you do do it, you place an onus on others to respond–and placing an onus on people when you don’t have to is the very definition of impolite. \*By this I don’t mean to say it’s always impolite. I mean it is not made necessary or in any sense obligatory by politeness. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/365 "2014-10-31T00:29:58Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Nodding, smiling, and saying hi to strangers isn’t polite.\* The proof of this lies in the fact that if you didn’t do it, no one would notice or care, whereas when you do do it, you place an onus on others to respond–and placing an onus on people when you don’t have to is the very definition of impolite. > > \*By this I don’t mean to say it’s always impolite. I mean it is not made necessary or in any sense obligatory by politeness. We’re just going to have to agree to disagree on that regard. I understand that everyone has their own background, upbringing, mileage may vary, but this is just one of the most jaw-dropping statements I’ve seen. It can be seen as impolite to smile at people? Seriously, if that’s the mindset of people in this thread, then it’s just gonna have to be a friendly and amicable impasse. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/366 "2014-10-31T00:33:45Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > It can be seen as impolite to smile at people? What I referred to was the act of “nodding, smiling and saying hi to strangers.” Yes, it can be impolite to do this. And also, in most public contexts, it is never necessary to do so in order to be polite. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/367 "2014-10-31T00:34:32Z")
The problem with politeness is that it’s just a method that can be used to show respect, but some people conflate it with respect, as if they’re one and the same thing. Hence you have those guys in the video who are surprised and annoyed when the woman doesn’t react to what they say, even those times it’s couched in polite language. They were being polite, and therefore necessarily respectful; what they were doing or saying or what their intentions were or, crucially, _why_ the woman in question ignored them and that she\* chose\* to ignore them didn’t matter to them at all; they were being respectful, because they used the right words. At the end of the day respectfulness is about thinking of other people and not just yourself. Politeness is one way to show respect, but it _isn’t_ respect, and when it’s used so as to try and transform disrespect into something more socially acceptable it fails. The most hurtful, harmful, unpleasant, disgusting things in the world are often spoken in a sentence alongside the politest, most on-the-surface-reasonable language. Just look at politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/368 "2014-10-31T00:47:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … > > And to restate my argument: I don’t agree that a short, polite nod and greeting is objectionable by general social norms in this country. I find it amazing that anyone could possibly disagree with this. A smile, a nod and a “hello” in passing is about as benign as any human interaction can be. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/369 "2014-10-31T00:51:13Z")
Once again, I’m not defending the guys in the video. I find what they did to be offensive and reprehensible. In the “smiling, nodding and saying hi” situation, at no point has either party stopped their motion in walking by. Hell, when I was at the supermarket today, it happened to me more than a handful of times. Nobody obstructed my path, tried to corner me, or anything of the sort. It’s just an acknowledgement. Nothing more, nothing less. Some of the replies seem to characterize it as something more. I understand that different areas have different protocols and social customs, but from what I’ve learned part of it is based on the energy (for lack of a better word) you put out there. Contrary to what EE might think, people in DC are friendlier than he gives them credit. Oftentimes, people would be the “initiator,” despite his characterization of the “small town rube who goes to the big city and doesn’t know how to function amongst the civilized folk.” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/370 "2014-10-31T00:58:38Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I find it amazing that anyone could possibly disagree with this. A smile, a nod and a “hello” in passing is about as benign as any human interaction can be. Not if someone were clearly not interested in being talked to. Have you never been in the kind of mood where people trying to be friendly makes it worse? I know I have. And it’s been obvious from my body language. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/371 "2014-10-31T01:19:14Z")
Unfortunately that innocent ‘acknowledgement’ is indistinguishable from the ‘initiator’ who needs nothing more than eye contact, or a smile, to become that guy that deserved a punch in the throat. He’s following you onto the subway because he thinks he sees an in. Those girls you see, that y’all want to say, ‘Smile Beautiful’ to, as an innocent comment, good chance she just shook off some creeper who took a glance his way, or a smile on her face, as a signal that she’s interested. So how many times a day should I react graciously with a nod or smile, before I get to be a stone cold bitch and say, ‘How about you just ring up my order/let me get in my car/on this bus/go back to reading your paper and leave me the hell alone, douchebag!’? Because even if she’s been dealing with this crap at every turn, anyone who sees her shoot down douche number 12, IS going to think her a stone cold bitch, for bruising his delicate ego. And that’s bullshit! ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/372 "2014-10-31T01:24:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It might not make a huge difference, but some women have said that the greeting makes them feel uncomfortable, so I see no reason to continue with it. No one I know has said anything about a smile and a nod, so I stuck with that. > > Not a big deal. Some folks told me something bothered them – it cost me nothing to stop – so I stopped. Excuse me - are you being sane and rational in the BBQ Pit? You know that’s not a social norm here, right? ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/373 "2014-10-31T01:27:03Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Unfortunately that innocent ‘acknowledgement’ is indistinguishable from the ‘initiator’ who needs nothing more than eye contact, or a smile, to become that guy that deserved a punch in the throat. He’s following you onto the subway because he thinks he sees an in. > > Those girls you see, that y’all want to say, ‘Smile Beautiful’ to, as an innocent comment, good chance she just shook off some creeper who took a glance his way, or a smile on her face, as a signal that she’s interested. > > So how many times a day should I react graciously with a nod or smile, before I get to be a stone cold bitch and say, ‘How about you just ring up my order/let me get in my car/on this bus/go back to reading your paper and leave me the hell alone, douchebag!’? > > Because even if she’s been dealing with this crap at every turn, anyone who sees her shoot down douche number 12, IS going to think her a stone cold bitch, for bruising his delicate ego. > > And that’s bullshit! For the record, I agree that statements such as “Smile, beautiful” and things of that nature are inappropriate (and creepy as hell) as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/374 "2014-10-31T01:40:30Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > In my view, because the disproportionate risk of harm. You are not harmed in any way whatsoever if you don’t say hello, and neither is the woman. But enough men have used a polite “Hello” as a pretense to something else, and enough women have had bad experiences through such incidental contact that they would rather not risk the slight benefit of a friendly “Hello” versus the possible harm from someone who takes a woman’s friendly reaction to such a greeting as an invitation to more personal intrusions How many is “enough,” and how do you know? > [@](#): > > Like I said, if you know specific women who have told you they don’t mind it, go ahead, say hi to them. But you don’t know how a stranger feels on the street so don’t talk to them Why is your rule the default one? Why can’t we adopt the mirror image: if you know women that object, don’t say anything to them, but otherwise feel free. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/375 "2014-10-31T01:42:18Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Unfortunately that innocent ‘acknowledgement’ is indistinguishable from the ‘initiator’ who needs nothing more than eye contact, or a smile, to become that guy that deserved a punch in the throat. He’s following you onto the subway because he thinks he sees an in. > > Those girls you see, that y’all want to say, ‘Smile Beautiful’ to, as an innocent comment, good chance she just shook off some creeper who took a glance his way, or a smile on her face, as a signal that she’s interested. > > So how many times a day should I react graciously with a nod or smile, before I get to be a stone cold bitch and say, ‘How about you just ring up my order/let me get in my car/on this bus/go back to reading your paper and leave me the hell alone, douchebag!’? > > Because even if she’s been dealing with this crap at every turn, anyone who sees her shoot down douche number 12, IS going to think her a stone cold bitch, for bruising his delicate ego. > > And that’s bullshit! Who are you responding to? Someone in this thread suggested that you owed some sort of response? Who was that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/376 "2014-10-31T01:51:43Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I think you might have missed the point of the example. The question at issue isn’t who speaks for the community. The question is which of the two individuals it’s appropriate to show more deference to. The one who doesn’t care about the epithet presumably could take it or leave it. The one who _does_ meanwhile, feels hurt when it is used. On balance, then, we should not use the epithet. Sure it’s kind of a utilitarian argument but this seems like a case where that kind of reasoning is definitely appropriate. Sorry, but this reasoning creates a situation in which a tiny fraction of the population creates the social norm, and I don’t agree that’s the way. It’s inconceivable to regard any serious harm or trauma is delivered by a brief nod and the word, “Morning.” And I am convinced the strong majority of people would not mind it or regard it as objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/377 "2014-10-31T02:01:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sorry, but this reasoning creates a situation in which a tiny fraction of the population creates the social norm, Exactly the opposite! It is you who is arguing that the desires of the so-called “friendly” types should create the social norm! But that aside, I am not arguing, really, that anyone’s desires should dictate the norm. I am pointing out that you, as an individual, can choose to either _do_ a thing which makes some people uncomfortable, or _refrain_ from doing it where so refraining will not make _anyone_ uncomfortable. Why would you choose the former over the latter? Why insist on imposing an obligation on others when you have no right to do so? Again, if the person hasn’t made eye contact with you or in some way acknowledged you, as they walk past, then they have thereby communicated to you that they are not here for an interaction with you. This means that if you begin an interaction, you are insisting on something they have communicated they do not want. Why would you do this? ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/378 "2014-10-31T02:16:16Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What I referred to was the act of “nodding, smiling and saying hi to strangers.” > > Yes, it can be impolite to do this. And also, in most public contexts, it is never necessary to do so in order to be polite. Oh for fuck’s sake - never been to Ireland, have you? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/379 "2014-10-31T02:16:54Z")
It’s not really complicated. When a ‘friendly hello’ is really saying ‘PAY ATTENTION TO ME FOR A MINUTE’, then yeah, it’s harassment…and that’s mostly what I saw in that video. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/380 "2014-10-31T02:26:02Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > It’s not really complicated. When a ‘friendly hello’ is really saying ‘PAY ATTENTION TO ME FOR A MINUTE’, then yeah, it’s harassment…and that’s mostly what I saw in that video. That’s interesting, I suppose, but I am already in agreement that most of the things in the video are objectionable. How about the scenario I am describing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=20)