# Shoshana Roberts, a street walker (10 hours,) films herself being "harassed." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930 "2014-10-29T20:25:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/381 "2014-10-31T02:27:44Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Oh for fuck’s sake - never been to Ireland, have you? :dubious: Yes, I have. Are you telling me that a person who walks down the sidewalk among strangers in a public place everyone acknowledges he or she has a right to be, on his or her own business, who is careful not to collide with people, but who also doesn’t make eye contact with anyone, is being rude for doing so? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/382 "2014-10-31T02:29:26Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Why insist on imposing an obligation on others when you have no right to do so? Saying hello to someone isn’t insisting or imposing anything. As a general comment - it’s this escalation of minor trivialities into an equivalence of something more serious that makes the message fall flat. If the message is, ‘don’t harass women or anyone’ that’s great. Going further and suggesting that greeting someone may be interpreted as harassment so it shouldn’t be done has crossed over into bizarro world. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/383 "2014-10-31T02:33:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s interesting, I suppose, but I am already in agreement that most of the things in the video are objectionable. > > How about the scenario I am describing? Is anyone seriously complaining about a random guy saying “hello” while going about his business, not adding any additional commentary, and doing so rather indiscriminately so that it can’t possibly be construed as sexually motivated? It seems like you are hell-bent on arguing a point no one is arguing. The thread is specifically about the kind of harassment in that video. Not whether it is rude to speak to strangers no matter what the context. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. If everyone is saying “howdy”, then it’s fine to say “howdy”. If no one is saying “howdy”, then you risk getting the evil eye if you engage in this practice. There is no right or wrong here. There is no logic or reason here. It’s just how customs and etiquette work. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/384 "2014-10-31T02:33:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Saying hello to someone isn’t insisting or imposing anything. It is, and here is the proof. You say hello to someone, and they make no acknowledgment of it whatsoever, walking right past as though you didn’t exist. What do you think? Do you find this utterly unremarkable, or do you think there’s something to be remarked on here? If the former, I’m surprised. But if the latter, then you show thereby that you expected something of them. If you didn’t expect anything of them, then why did you do anything at all in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/385 "2014-10-31T02:35:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It seems like you are hell-bent on arguing a point no one is arguing. Well in fairness, in response to his posts in this thread, I myself _am_ arguing he shouldn’t go around indiscriminately saying “hello” and nodding at strangers. Not that I think this is harassment in itself, to be doubly clear. -KR ---
**Author:** ![1060westaddison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/8baadc/32.png) [@1060westaddison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1060westaddison)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/386 "2014-10-31T02:51:50Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Saying hello to someone isn’t insisting or imposing anything. > > As a general comment - it’s this escalation of minor trivialities into an equivalence of something more serious that makes the message fall flat. > > If the message is, ‘don’t harass women or anyone’ that’s great. Going further and suggesting that greeting someone may be interpreted as harassment so it shouldn’t be done has crossed over into bizarro world. Saying hi to strangers in, say, Des Moines is just being polite. Saying hi to strangers in a busy city like Chicago or New York is… not normal. As a guy, it means that someone is begging me for money, selling something, or maybe trying to get me to sign a petition. I can imagine that for a woman, it could be more sinister. But, either way, in a crowded city, a hello isn’t just a hello. An analogy: if you live in the country, you may wave at cars going the other way on a lightly traveled country road. Waving at cars going the other way on Interstate 80 would just be weird. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/387 "2014-10-31T02:53:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Is anyone seriously complaining about a random guy saying “hello” while going about his business, not adding any additional commentary, and doing so rather indiscriminately so that it can’t possibly be construed as sexually motivated? Yes, they are. Read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/388 "2014-10-31T03:26:52Z")
> [@1060westaddison](#): > > …An analogy: if you live in the country, you may wave at cars going the other way on a lightly traveled country road. Waving at cars going the other way on Interstate 80 would just be weird. That’s a great analogy. I live in a rural part of Ottawa, and people frequently wave at one another, especially in the same 2-acre lot neighbourhood. But to do that downtown would be extremely weird. (Unless you are driving a motorcycle and meet another motorcycle, then waves are mandatory: although I have absolutely no idea why.) 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/389 "2014-10-31T04:25:09Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > (Unless you are driving a motorcycle and meet another motorcycle, then waves are mandatory: although I have absolutely no idea why.) 😕 As far as why, it’s best to say simply that it is the custom among our people. In the US the “wave” we use is typically just the left hand pointed down at the ground, index finger extended. It’s not necessarily considered rude not to return it or do it, because most intelligent bikers know sometimes you right at that moment need both hands, or are watching something in the road, but it is expected. When we drive the Vette other Vette owners wave too; another old custom whose origin may be apocryphal. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/390 "2014-10-31T04:31:34Z")
One thing I have always wondered with this street catcall crap, has it ever worked out? Has a single guy anywhere ever gone on a date or hooked up based on yelling something to a woman on the street? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/391 "2014-10-31T04:33:50Z")
Seeing the video and reading this thread, I’m tempted to play “story time with Aunt Una” and describe how my entire world and view on casual male attention in public changed. Suffice to say, changing from being a geeky unattractive male presentation to an average-looking female presentation is an entirely different world. It took quite some time to become used to the casual suggestive looks, the “undressing me with their eyes” bit as they stare at my legs or breasts, the verbal come-ons, the shouted propositions, the unwanted “just bein’ friendly” touch on you, or even the quick feel being copped. Or even the pushy “friendly guy” who grabs your groceries or your packages, refuses to put them down and insists on walking to your car with you - or your front door. Who will then flash to anger and shouting when you try to politely insist that you don’t need any help. Men have no idea what it is like. Honestly, generally, you don’t. I didn’t, and I thought I was somewhat more aware than the average bear, being very sensitive to gender and boundaries while living in hiding as a male. I was quite the ignoramus. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/392 "2014-10-31T04:41:08Z")
> [@grude](#): > > One thing I have always wondered with this street catcall crap, has it ever worked out? Has a single guy anywhere ever gone on a date or hooked up based on yelling something to a woman on the street? Dear God yes, I have seen it work. It’s very rare, but I know of two girlfriends who will do this. One is in a horribly unhappy marriage and is sort of “revenge fucking” around behind her husbands back. The other one has a serious alcohol problem and after 3 or 4 drinks she will basically start scanning the men around her for who she is going to fuck tonight, and sometimes she will respond very positively to a cute guy who catcalls her. I have to reckon men know that a one-in-a-thousand chance to have a hot girl jump you is worth their effort harassing and intimidating the 999 rejections. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/393 "2014-10-31T05:09:55Z")
> [@grude](#): > > One thing I have always wondered with this street catcall crap, has it ever worked out? Has a single guy anywhere ever gone on a date or hooked up based on yelling something to a woman on the street? It’s not a pick-up line. It’s like saying “Polly want a cracker” to a parrot or “moo moo” to a heard of cows- a meaningless reflex that serves only to demonstrate dominance over something. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/394 "2014-10-31T05:19:47Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s not a pick-up line. It’s like saying “Polly want a cracker” to a parrot or “moo moo” to a heard of cows- a meaningless reflex that serves only to demonstrate dominance over something. No; that claim only makes sense in the feminist-conspiracy-theory view of the world where men are all a hive mind with no interests or emotions beyond dominating women. A world where men don’t even have a sex drive, just an all consuming desire to dominate women for the sake of dominating them. The idea that it’s about “dominance” of all things is just goofy. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/395 "2014-10-31T05:32:55Z")
> [@grude](#): > > One thing I have always wondered with this street catcall crap, has it ever worked out? Has a single guy anywhere ever gone on a date or hooked up based on yelling something to a woman on the street? > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Dear God yes, I have seen it work. > [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s not a pick-up line. It’s like saying “Polly want a cracker” to a parrot or “moo moo” to a heard of cows- a meaningless reflex that serves only to demonstrate dominance over something. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; that claim only makes sense in the feminist-conspiracy-theory view of the world where men are all a hive mind with no interests or emotions beyond dominating women. A world where men don’t even have a sex drive, just an all consuming desire to dominate women for the sake of dominating them. > > The idea that it’s about “dominance” of all things is just goofy. [Caroline Rhea already answered this question, in conversation with Dr. Katz, back in the 1990s.](http://youtu.be/tWgaWuNOnHc?t=19m) ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/396 "2014-10-31T06:04:55Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Seeing the video and reading this thread, I’m tempted to play “story time with Aunt Una” and describe how my entire world and view on casual male attention in public changed. Suffice to say, changing from being a geeky unattractive male presentation to an average-looking female presentation is an entirely different world. > > It took quite some time to become used to the casual suggestive looks, the “undressing me with their eyes” bit as they stare at my legs or breasts, the verbal come-ons, the shouted propositions, the unwanted “just bein’ friendly” touch on you, or even the quick feel being copped. Or even the pushy “friendly guy” who grabs your groceries or your packages, refuses to put them down and insists on walking to your car with you - or your front door. Who will then flash to anger and shouting when you try to politely insist that you don’t need any help. > > Men have no idea what it is like. Honestly, generally, you don’t. I didn’t, and I thought I was somewhat more aware than the average bear, being very sensitive to gender and boundaries while living in hiding as a male. I was quite the ignoramus. 😕 I only started noticing how badly women have it as an adult, most women have a story about basically being sexually assaulted in public(thigh grabbed on a bus etc) in addition to all the rest. It was kind of a shock to realize how common it was. The worst is when you have a group of guys together trying to one up each other, then it gets nasty and personal fast. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/397 "2014-10-31T07:08:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’ve already shared that I have visited NYC as a tourist many times, and I _do_ nod and say hello to passersby of both genders. Yeah, so do I. _In an identical tone of voice_, mainly because it’s a politeness/acknowledgement thing. (Or at least I perceive it that way.) The tone of voice of the guys in the video was completely different. I flat out disbelieve that they would use the same tone with another guy. They were being assholes IMO. I recall such behavior when I lived in NYC. Not sure what I should do about it. Naive me was sort of surprised these guys hadn’t encountered a knuckle sandwich. So Bricker: optional question: do you use a different tone with men and women? If you do that doesn’t necessarily imply that you are being a problem. I opine that it does call for some introspection though. * * * 1. The woman reportedly received 103 comments in 10 hours, which works out to an average of one every 6 minutes. That’s obviously a lot. But I would guess she passed 100? people in each 6 minute interval. _So I hypothesize that catcalls are not typical behavior for any group of people._ It’s a minority of men that pull this bullshit: in any city block most do not. That means it’s not a cultural norm _per se_. 2. Linguists and sociologists should replicate this study, with proper documentation. * * * > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > It took quite some time to become used to the casual suggestive looks, the “undressing me with their eyes” bit as they stare at my legs or breasts… Er… could you explain how that works? “Undressing with eyes”: does that mean staring? The expression has puzzled me, to my embarrassment. > [@Der](#): > > No; that claim only makes sense in the feminist-conspiracy-theory view of the world where men are all a hive mind with no interests or emotions beyond dominating women. A world where men don’t even have a sex drive, just an all consuming desire to dominate women for the sake of dominating them. > > The idea that it’s about “dominance” of all things is just goofy. Ok, but in this context, the success rate of these tactics has to be/is reportedly/is allegedly so low that we have to look for other explanations. What we need is another camera crew to follow up and interview some of these assholes. More grist for linguist/sociological study. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/398 "2014-10-31T08:04:33Z")
One of the comment (about “they’re asserting dominance over women”) remembered me of an incident I witnessed on blogs some time ago. This young (and attractive) woman had made herself some ennemies by heavily criticizing men who had porn blogs (that she was apparently seeking in order to criticize them), and eventually all men watching non “feminist-friendly” porn (whatever that is. I’d be curious to know, by the way). So, someday she posted a rant about being so fed up with strange men hitting on her when she was shopping. But people remembered that she had posted a couple months ago about being so enthralled because she had been hit on in a shop by this attractive young guy (who would become a temporary bf). Of course she backpedaled explaining how the other guys were just rude and asserting dominance (hence why I remember that) while her bf had just been polite, and respectful and whatever, but essentially her position amounted to not being acceptable for men to hit on strange women unless they’re attractive (like her bf) and the woman is currently single and seeking (like they could know) . That might be a caricatural example but still… My point is that attractive young women are hit on by men who obviously have something in mind (or even if they don’t, do it only because they’re young and attractive). That probably gets old quickly, but that’s life. That’s their cross to bear, and there frankly are heavier crosses. And they also, get to be hit on by the kind of men they want, as in this case, and they’re more likely to get a job, and more likely to get out of a traffic violation, and so on. And someday they’ll get old and strange men won’t hit on them anymore. That’s life. I keep thinking it’s acceptable for a man to hit on a strange woman, especially since it’s what is socially expected (I know that female dopers will hunt down men they’re interested in, but most ordinary women will wait for men to make a move), and too much of it, even though very probably annoying, still strikes me as a “first world problem”. Being looked at with concupiscence because you’re hot certainly beats being looked at with suspicion because you’re dark, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/399 "2014-10-31T08:52:09Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > “Dear nice guys who just want to say hi: the assholes ruined it for you. Police your asshole friends and then maybe we can talk in five years.” - Daily Show correspondent Jessica Williams on Twitter No thanks, other people are not my responsibility. But you can do it if you want. However I do wonder how you Americans even manage to meet each other. Half the people I know met their others in public by chatting up strangers. btw. I’ve walked ten hours in NY recently. I was contacted by about the same amount of people. Sales guys, homeless dudes, lost people, etc. [Besides the video is horrible racist](http://www.freezepage.com/1414659608DESLPMHSFQ) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/400 "2014-10-31T09:51:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s interesting, I suppose, but I am already in agreement that most of the things in the video are objectionable. > > How about the scenario I am describing? If you were to nod at me and say hello on the street, I’d nod and say hello back at you, and then I’d spend the next half hour thinking, _Why did that guy just say hello to me? Does he know me? Do I know HIM? Who is he? Did I go to school with him? Is he married to… no, that’s not him. Why can’t I remember him? What the hell is happening to my memory!? I’M ONLY 40 YEARS OLD!_ So yeah, please, if you don’t know me, show some mercy and don’t say hello. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=21)