# Shoshana Roberts, a street walker (10 hours,) films herself being "harassed." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930 "2014-10-29T20:25:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/401 "2014-10-31T10:23:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If you were to nod at me and say hello on the street, I’d nod and say hello back at you, and then I’d spend the next half hour thinking, _Why did that guy just say hello to me? Does he know me? Do I know HIM? Who is he? Did I go to school with him? Is he married to… no, that’s not him. Why can’t I remember him? What the hell is happening to my memory!? I’M ONLY 40 YEARS OLD!_ > > So yeah, please, if you don’t know me, show some mercy and don’t say hello. And, like I said, you’re not a special snowflake and don’t get to dictate how people interact with other people. Because that’s what you are doing. You are a stranger in this scenario. The only way to make sure I don’t do it to you is to make sure I never do it. You also might want to get that social anxiety looked into. I know the exact feeling. It’s bullshit, and the world does not have to accommodate it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/402 "2014-10-31T10:32:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Is anyone seriously complaining about a random guy saying “hello” while going about his business, not adding any additional commentary, and doing so rather indiscriminately so that it can’t possibly be construed as sexually motivated? Yes, **Kimstu** , at a minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/403 "2014-10-31T10:37:31Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > It is, and here is the proof. You say hello to someone, and they make no acknowledgment of it whatsoever, walking right past as though you didn’t exist. What do you think? Do you find this utterly unremarkable, or do you think there’s something to be remarked on here? > > If the former, I’m surprised. But if the latter, then you show thereby that you expected something of them. > > If you didn’t expect anything of them, then why did you do anything at all in the first place? I certainly don’t expect an acknowledgement, any more than if I hold the door for someone. A person is free to ignore such a greeting or gesture without any remarks from me. So, I guess you’re surprised. Why do it if I don’t expect anything? What an odd question – it almost assumes someone’s actions always expect something in return. I do it because it seems to fit social norms as a pleasant thing to do. It requires no response. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/404 "2014-10-31T10:38:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, **Kimstu** , at a minimum. > [@Frylock](#): > > Well in fairness, in response to his posts in this thread, I myself _am_ arguing he shouldn’t go around indiscriminately saying “hello” and nodding at strangers. Not that I think this is harassment in itself, to be doubly clear. > > -KR And Frylock. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/405 "2014-10-31T10:45:21Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > So Bricker: optional question: do you use a different tone with men and women? If you do that doesn’t necessarily imply that you are being a problem. I opine that it does call for some introspection though. No, although I do reserve a deferential “Ma’am,” for women and not men. So I don’t generally use a different tone, but sometimes use a different word. What does that imply? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/406 "2014-10-31T10:59:37Z")
The tower of enlightenment Scott Adams has a take on the video: > [@](#): > > So here’s my personal reaction, as a man who is the intended target of this educational video. > The video is unintentionally racist as hell, and that doesn’t help feminism. > The video editing feels manipulative and turns me off to the message. > It makes women look like idiots for living in such a place voluntarily. > Every man featured in the video is a creep. Isn’t that sexist? > The harassment was mostly in the form of powerless men hurling compliments at a woman that probably has a better job and more education than nearly all of the men in the video. Remind me again who the victims are? > The creepy stalker guys were just scary. MOVE!!! MOVE!!! MOVE!!! [Feedback for Feminists](http://dilbert.com/blog/entry/feedback_for_feminists/) The move thing is usually a bit of an unreasonable demand, but on the other hand. Why live there if it is such a horrible place? They could move to Stockholm or some such place where people are visible uncomfortable to interact in any way with strangers, or even to be in the same general vicinity. But Stockholm isn’t New York, and perhaps one of the things that makes NY such a vibrant and dynamic city (and Stockholm not) is part of what makes strangers also contact you on the street in sometimes inappropriate ways. Perhaps it would be possible to change NY to be more like Stockholm, but then it wouldn’t be the NY that so many people love. Also, in Iraq/Syria Islamists are busy enslaving underage girls to be used for sex concubines. But here’s a video with some guys saying good morning to a woman on the street – important stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/407 "2014-10-31T11:04:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, like I said, you’re not a special snowflake and don’t get to dictate how people interact with other people. Because that’s what you are doing. You are a stranger in this scenario. The only way to make sure I don’t do it to you is to make sure I never do it. Or maybe you should just mind your own business, like I was doing. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/408 "2014-10-31T11:07:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I certainly don’t expect an acknowledgement, any more than if I hold the door for someone. A person is free to ignore such a greeting or gesture without any remarks from me. But the thing is, a lot of people aren’t so blase. Some people don’t expect reciprocation. Some people do. “You’re not going to speak?! How rude.” I never heard this when I lived in the Great White North. I hear it frequently in the South (and I’ve thought it myself). I can see what **Frylock** is saying even though I wouldn’t go to his extreme. People, on the whole, do NOT like to be construed as rude. But they also don’t like to go against social convention. If you insist on sticking to your way without respecting the norm around you, you risk rubbing people the wrong way. So why would you do this? If you’re only doing something because it makes you feel good, that is selfish–the very opposite of “polite”. I agree with **Kimstu** too. It really is impolite to attract attention to yourself out in public if it’s clear someone doesn’t want to give you any attention. Is it the absolute height of rudeness? No. But if you and a bunch of other people get caught doing it on a video, be prepared to receive criticism about it. As usual, you’re arguing over relatively minor points to distract from something we should all be 100% agreement about. Those guys were acting rudely. If you don’t act like those guys, then you are in the clear. Saying “hello” in a culture where that practice is the norm is not even in the same universe as what those guys were doing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/409 "2014-10-31T11:32:09Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I can see what **Frylock** is saying even though I wouldn’t go to his extreme. People, on the whole, do NOT like to be construed as rude. But they also don’t like to go against social convention. If you insist on sticking to your way without respecting the norm around you, you risk rubbing people the wrong way. So why would you do this? If you’re only doing something because it makes you feel good, that is selfish–the very opposite of “polite”. On the contrary, I’m doing it because it’s the social norm. A few people may be rubbed the wrong way, but it’s they that have expectations that lie outside the social norm, not I. > [@](#): > > I agree with **Kimstu** too. It really is impolite to attract attention to yourself out in public if it’s clear someone doesn’t want to give you any attention. Is it the absolute height of rudeness? No. But if you and a bunch of other people get caught doing it on a video, be prepared to receive criticism about it. > > As usual, you’re arguing over relatively minor points to distract from something we should all be 100% agreement about. Those guys were acting rudely. If you don’t act like those guys, then you are in the clear. Saying “hello” in a culture where that practice is the norm is not even in the same universe as what those guys were doing. I agree the the majority of actions captured on that recording are rude. But despite your best attempt to harmonize your position with those of others, the fact remains that there is a difference of opinion as to whether the behavior I describe puts me “in the clear.” We’re all agreed that the recording captures unacceptable behavior. But it also kickstarted a discussion on a comparatively benign practice, one which not all commentators agree upon. That may be a minor point, but since all participants are in agreement on the major point (except the OP, I admit, but I feel his views may be safely disregarded) then discussing the minor points seems appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/410 "2014-10-31T11:50:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > On the contrary, I’m doing it because it’s the social norm. A few people may be rubbed the wrong way, but it’s they that have expectations that lie outside the social norm, not I. I don’t know how many times I have to say this… IF YOU ARE IN A CULTURE WHERE “SPEAKING” IS THE NORM, THEN YOU ARE IN THE CLEAR. Neither **Frylock** or **Kimstu’s** posts would seem to disagree with you on this. Even if a person’s body language suggest they don’t want to be bothered, you saying “hello” to her/him would be universally interpreted as a innocent reflex, not you being a jerk. However, you would be a jerk if you tried to engage that person further. > [@](#): > > I agree the the majority of actions captured on that recording are rude. > > But despite your best attempt to harmonize your position with those of others, the fact remains that there is a difference of opinion as to whether the behavior I describe puts me “in the clear.” We’re all agreed that the recording captures unacceptable behavior. But it also kickstarted a discussion on a comparatively benign practice, one which not all commentators agree upon. That may be a minor point, but since all participants are in agreement on the major point (except the OP, I admit, but I feel his views may be safely disregarded) then discussing the minor points seems appropriate. You and maybe two other posters are the only ones who are acting like this complicated calculus. Everyone else seems to understand how “hello” can be acceptable in one instance and inappropriate in another. I’ve never heard a woman complain about people simply saying “hello” in passing. Perhaps I surround myself with intelligent, non-hypersensitive women, but my experience shows me that women know the difference between harrassing behaviors and innocuous social custom. I know that _I_ do. Does your experience differ from mine? Have you ever overheard a woman wishing the population as a whole would cease exchanging pleasantries? Or have you heard her complaining about guys acting like the men did in that video? Because it seems to me you are being the stereotypical **Bricker** yet again by pretending you don’t understand something that is really basic and obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/411 "2014-10-31T11:53:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Neither **Frylock** or **Kimstu’s** posts would seem to disagree with you on this. Even if a person’s body language suggest they don’t want to be bothered, you saying “hello” to her/him would be universally interpreted as a innocent reflex, not you being a jerk. However, you would be a jerk if you tried to engage that person further. I completely agree. Kimstu? Frylock? Do you agree with what monstro says above? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/412 "2014-10-31T11:57:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; that claim only makes sense in the feminist-conspiracy-theory view of the world where men are all a hive mind with no interests or emotions beyond dominating women. A world where men don’t even have a sex drive, just an all consuming desire to dominate women for the sake of dominating them. > > The idea that it’s about “dominance” of all things is just goofy. Here is the thing, though. This doesn’t just happen to women. Go to China, and people are going to yell dumb stuff at you on the street. Go to Africa- it’ll blow your mind how every damn person feels compelled to comment that you are white and you exist in space. Or be a minority here, and enjoy the dumb shit people say to minorities. Try hearing “Oh, do you know Kung Fu?” like it’s the most clever thing in the world. I’m sure it happens to the disabled. It happens to anyone who is visibly “different” or in the outgroup, and for whatever reason is not likely to call you out on it. Another thing to notice- send a woman to Istanbul or Cairo or Delhi, and the “stupid stuff men yell at me meter” is going to break. Go to Helsinki or Amsterdam, and you are unlikely to hear even a peep. Adjusted for general cultural extraversion. the amount of street harassment women get is a direct correlation to how that society treats women as a whole. The stuff that people yell in NYC (or wherever) is not some different thing. It’s on the same continuum. All of which implies this isn’t just a failed mating attempt. This is one manifestation of a bigger issue. It’s a way of marking territory. Of saying “this is my space and I’m going to remind you that you don’t belong here.” It’s a way of reminding people that they are different. And that is a form of asserting dominence. (And no, not “all men do it” you whiny git. Do all men yell dumb shit at women on the street? Of course not. Just the obnoxious ones.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/413 "2014-10-31T12:12:19Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Or be a minority here, and enjoy the dumb shit people say to minorities. Try hearing “Oh, do you know Kung Fu?” like it’s the most clever thing in the world. My children know the correct response to this. It is “Yes, I do” and then kick them hard on the kneecap. [QUOTE=Bricker] I’ve already shared that I have visited NYC as a tourist many times, and I _do_ nod and say hello to passersby of both genders. [/QUOTE] You must have gone to a different New York from me. I was riding the subway there, it was crowded. I stood up, touched my hat, and said to the lady standing near me, “Would you like to sit down, ma’am?” and she looked at me as if I had just announced my intention of eating her liver. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/414 "2014-10-31T12:14:06Z")
This video has made the rounds but I didn’t actually have the chance to watch it until seeing it here. My first three thoughts: [ol] [li]A significant number of the “hey” / “good evenings” / etc. are just bums about to ask for money.[/li][li]How many men do you walk past in NYC over ten hours? Would five thousand be a good guess?[/li][li]Neither of the above points are to say there isn’t a problem - just that we are now working on the long tail of it.[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/415 "2014-10-31T12:15:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You must have gone to a different New York from me. I was riding the subway there, it was crowded. I stood up, touched my hat, and said to the lady standing near me, “Would you like to sit down, ma’am?” and she looked at me as if I had just announced my intention of eating her liver. In the DC metro I’ve learned that it’s acceptable to offer one’s seat to pregnant women and the elderly, but that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/416 "2014-10-31T12:42:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You must have gone to a different New York from me. I was riding the subway there, it was crowded. I stood up, touched my hat, and said to the lady standing near me, “Would you like to sit down, ma’am?” and she looked at me as if I had just announced my intention of eating her liver. Maybe next time try it without gesturing toward your face. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/417 "2014-10-31T13:00:09Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Maybe next time try it without gesturing toward your face. Darn feminists. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/418 "2014-10-31T13:07:48Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > And people like you, who act with faux outrage that there doesn’t seem to be anyone who has issues with what the actress and the activist group did Your phrasing is poor, so I’m not certain what you mean, but it’s obvious that there are people who have issues with what she did. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/419 "2014-10-31T13:11:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I certainly don’t expect an acknowledgement, any more than if I hold the door for someone. A person is free to ignore such a greeting or gesture without any remarks from me. > > So, I guess you’re surprised. > > Why do it if I don’t expect anything? What an odd question – it almost assumes someone’s actions always expect something in return. I do it because it seems to fit social norms as a pleasant thing to do. It requires no response. I’m sorry, I don’t believe this. I know that means there’s no real way to proceed in the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/420 "2014-10-31T13:15:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I completely agree. > > Kimstu? Frylock? Do you agree with what monstro says above? Not quite–if the body language says the person doesn’t want to be bothered, then the reflexive “hello,” while it may be excusable in many cases as a habit, is nevertheless an imposition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=22)