# Shoshana Roberts, a street walker (10 hours,) films herself being "harassed." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930 "2014-10-29T20:25:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/581 "2014-11-02T04:48:27Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why is it inappropriate to talk about the women who like this behaviour if we are discussing whether or not it’s appropriate behavior? Why is it only the women who do not like it who’s opinion matters? I’m curious how you arrived at this conclusion. Why is it only the people who were upset about free candy whose opinion matters? What about the people who like free candy? Why don’t their opinions matter? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/582 "2014-11-02T05:05:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > yes, but it makes the point men can be objectified and harassed with intrusive comments as well. but no, he’s not unsafe. but it gets 2 out of 3. I don’t disagree, but it happens to such a lesser degree that it’s laughable that those guys in the video think it’s a “gotcha” moment. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/583 "2014-11-02T05:07:08Z")
I just remembered, **Stringbean** is the one who does the drive-by [gibberish posts](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17705991) in the racist evolution threads. Dude, why don’t you just admit you don’t know anything about evolution and give it a rest already? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/584 "2014-11-02T05:35:41Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Why is it only the people who were upset about free candy whose opinion matters? What about the people who like free candy? Why don’t their opinions matter? I don’t know. Why do you think they don’t? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/585 "2014-11-02T05:36:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why is it inappropriate to talk about the women who like this behaviour if we are discussing whether or not it’s appropriate behavior? Why is it only the women who do not like it who’s opinion matters? I’m curious how you arrived at this conclusion. Ok, I’m going to do a non-parody response here. All use of the word “you” are general, not specific to any individual. Look, if you want to cat-call women on the the street, it’s not like there’s much to stop you. Unless you are verbally threatening someone, or getting in their space, it’s very difficult to restrict speech of this type in the US. So, people are pretty much free to cat-call or say “hello” or whatever they want to do to passing women without much fear of legal sanction. Now, there might be social sanction from this. Your friends might yell at you or something, but hey, if this is a big issue for you, then you get to choose your social group, so you can find friends who like cat calling. But, if you are actually concerned about how your actions impact people, then maybe you would want to look outside your narrow world and try to understand where the women who are upset are coming from. Does that mean you should never, ever talk to a strange woman? No, not necessarily. But, maybe you could take into account what a lot of women go through in a day. Maybe you could make that part of the thought process you go through before talking to a strange woman on the street. Because a lot of people in this thread are essentially approaching the argument from the viewpoint that what these women think is irrelevant. And we’ve gotten one stupid argument after another to support that, but when you cut through everything, that’s really what we’re left with. A lot of people are saying they simply do not care that these women are upset. I think it’s a shitty way to go through life. If your goal is to not try to make things unnecessarily unpleasant for people, then you take into account the fact that a lot of women find this type of interaction unpleasant. If you don’t give a shit about that, then you ignore it. I don’t have some clear cut set of rules about how and when to talk to women. What I do know is that a lot of women are telling me that they don’t like this, so I’m going to take that into consideration when I talk to them. I’m going to make it part of my calculation. If you don’t want to do that, well, I guess that’s your choice. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/586 "2014-11-02T05:37:58Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t know. Why do you think they don’t? Well, now I regret spending time on the non-parody response. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/587 "2014-11-02T05:59:26Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Ok, I’m going to do a non-parody response here. All use of the word “you” are general, not specific to any individual. > > Look, if you want to cat-call women on the the street, it’s not like there’s much to stop you. Unless you are verbally threatening someone, or getting in their space, it’s very difficult to restrict speech of this type in the US. So, people are pretty much free to cat-call or say “hello” or whatever they want to do to passing women without much fear of legal sanction. > > Now, there might be social sanction from this. Your friends might yell at you or something, but hey, if this is a big issue for you, then you get to choose your social group, so you can find friends who like cat calling. > > But, if you are actually concerned about how your actions impact people, then maybe you would want to look outside your narrow world and try to understand where the women who are upset are coming from. Does that mean you should never, ever talk to a strange woman? No, not necessarily. But, maybe you could take into account what a lot of women go through in a day. Maybe you could make that part of the thought process you go through before talking to a strange woman on the street. > > Because a lot of people in this thread are essentially approaching the argument from the viewpoint that what these women think is irrelevant. And we’ve gotten one stupid argument after another to support that, but when you cut through everything, that’s really what we’re left with. A lot of people are saying they simply do not care that these women are upset. I think it’s a shitty way to go through life. > > If your goal is to not try to make things unnecessarily unpleasant for people, then you take into account the fact that a lot of women find this type of interaction unpleasant. If you don’t give a shit about that, then you ignore it. I don’t have some clear cut set of rules about how and when to talk to women. What I do know is that a lot of women are telling me that they don’t like this, so I’m going to take that into consideration when I talk to them. I’m going to make it part of my calculation. If you don’t want to do that, well, I guess that’s your choice. Okay. Thanks for offering the explanation. You didn’t really answer my question, but you did explain your point of view in general. Your explanation that “you” is general and non-specific seems insincere and the tone of your post, which is pretty openly hostile, doesn’t do anything to mitigate that. My sole interaction with you was to ask you 2 questions and explain why I was asking them, and your response was an unnecessary & openly hostile mocking of my post. So that’s my first point of evidence that you’re an asshole. If you don’t think you are, well, consider that to at least one person you are coming across that way. Your post also comes across as if you’ve already decided what I think and now you’re going to tell me what you think. It’s so full of your own smugness that it’s hard to find the decent human being trying to communicate through it all; it’s to your credit that that decency does shine through, albeit in somewhat diminished capacity. I had a genuine question, one which seems to have got caught on your “parody”. A great deal of that now appears to have just been you being a condescending prig, and your follow-up post: > [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Well, now I regret spending time on the non-parody response. seems to confirm my perception. I suppose in some small ways, tho, you’ve done your part to fulfill this board’s mission, so grats on that. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/588 "2014-11-02T06:07:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Your explanation that “you” is general and non-specific seems insincere and the tone of your post, which is pretty openly hostile, doesn’t do anything to mitigate that. My sole interaction with you was to ask you 2 questions and explain why I was asking them, and your response was an unnecessary & openly hostile mocking of my post. So that’s my first point of evidence that you’re an asshole. If you don’t think you are, well, consider that to at least one person you are coming across that way. I’m pretty sure you’re an asshole. I gave you an explanation of my viewpoint, and you decide to throw a tantrum. > [@](#): > > Your post also comes across as if you’ve already decided what I think and now you’re going to tell me what you think. It’s so full of your own smugness that it’s hard to find the decent human being trying to communicate through it all; it’s to your credit that that decency does shine through, albeit in somewhat diminished capacity. Nope. I stated that I wasn’t talking about you specifically, and you have decided to ignore that. Not my problem. > [@](#): > > I had a genuine question, one which seems to have got caught on your “parody”. A great deal of that now appears to have just been you being a condescending prig, and your follow-up post:seems to confirm my perception. The only condescending prig here is you. I certainly don’t care what you think. But thanks for letting us all know what a terrible person you are. And let’s go back. I never said only the women who are upset have opinions that matter, that’s something you made up. I can see there’s no point in trying to reason with you. > [@](#): > > I suppose in some small ways, tho, you’ve done your part to fulfill this board’s mission, so grats on that. I suppose in some small way, you’ve shown us what a small person you are. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/589 "2014-11-02T06:16:26Z")
He doesn’t want to answer the questions. He wants to mock and insult you and then give his nice little speech about why bad boys need a spanking. Funny thing is he hides behind the passive aggressive “parodies” and thinks that’s winning him the debate. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/590 "2014-11-02T06:19:02Z")
Oh, I’m going back to parodies, because it’s clear you are a moron. There’s no point in trying to debate you, because your arguments are stupid. Still waiting for your background on evolution. But I think we all know it’s not coming. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/591 "2014-11-02T08:26:18Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > I don’t disagree, but it happens to such a lesser degree that it’s laughable that those guys in the video think it’s a “gotcha” moment. Was it a “gotcha” video? I didn’t think of it like that. I looked at other videos by the same group. They just seem to question the gender bias. One video was about how women check out men in similar ways to men checking out women. In addressing your claim that the disparity in genders of people being catcalled is wide, there’s this [2014 report on street harassment](http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2014-National-SSH-Street-Harassment-Report.pdf) [Warning: HUGE pdf file]. Of the 2,000 people responding: > [@](#): > > Sixty-five percent of women reported experiencing at least one type of street harassment in their lifetimes. More than half (57%) of all women had experienced verbal harassment, and 41% of all women had experienced physically aggressive forms, including sexual touching (23%), following (20%), flashing (14%), and being forced to do something sexual (9%). For men, 25% experienced street harassment, too, including 18% who experienced verbal harassment and 16% who experienced physically aggressive forms. More men who identified as LGBT experienced harassment than men who identified as heterosexual. 65% of women in that survey had experienced street harassment. But a quarter of males in that survey also responded that they had experienced street harassment, although only 18% experienced verbal harassment. While most men may not experience the same kind of fear and vulnerability, do you think that they would enjoy the experience in the video if they had to live it every day? That’s a serious question. I know I would not, but I can’t see it from his point of view. It seems very intrusive and would get very obnoxious pretty quickly if it happened every day. The report was linked in an article called [“What To Do When Someone Catcalls You On The Street”](http://www.businessinsider.com/what-to-do-when-catcalled-2014-7) by Melia Robinson published in July 2014 that I thought was very informative. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/592 "2014-11-02T12:11:51Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Okay. Thanks for offering the explanation. You didn’t really answer my question, but you did explain your point of view in general. > > Your explanation that “you” is general and non-specific seems insincere and the tone of your post, which is pretty openly hostile, doesn’t do anything to mitigate that. My sole interaction with you was to ask you 2 questions and explain why I was asking them, and your response was an unnecessary & openly hostile mocking of my post. So that’s my first point of evidence that you’re an asshole. If you don’t think you are, well, consider that to at least one person you are coming across that way. > > Your post also comes across as if you’ve already decided what I think and now you’re going to tell me what you think. It’s so full of your own smugness that it’s hard to find the decent human being trying to communicate through it all; it’s to your credit that that decency does shine through, albeit in somewhat diminished capacity. > > I had a genuine question, one which seems to have got caught on your “parody”. A great deal of that now appears to have just been you being a condescending prig, and your follow-up post:seems to confirm my perception. > > I suppose in some small ways, tho, you’ve done your part to fulfill this board’s mission, so grats on that. The answer to your question, which **BrightNShiny** gave in other posts, is that the opinions of women who enjoy the behavior do matter. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/593 "2014-11-02T12:16:05Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why is it inappropriate to talk about the women who like this behaviour if we are discussing whether or not it’s appropriate behavior? Why is it only the women who do not like it who’s opinion matters? I’m curious how you arrived at this conclusion. Because there’s many women who say it really bothers them, who say it makes them feel degraded and unsafe, and you ignoring that and trying to find a way to avoid admitting that it’s a fucked up thing to do is a little disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/594 "2014-11-02T16:57:37Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > 65% of women in that survey had experienced street harassment. But a quarter of males in that survey also responded that they had experienced street harassment, although only 18% experienced verbal harassment. Does the result of that survey define harassment as someone saying “hi” to them? Some people in this thread feel that way. If that’s the standard, the survey is meaningless. Claims that everything and anything under the sun is harassment depending on how one person may feel cheapens the impact of real harassment. Normally if someone I knew were to say they were harassed in some way I would be empathetic and supportive. If someone like the folks in this thread said they were harassed in some way, first I’d have to evaluate if I agree with their assessment because their meter is so whack. I don’t think that’s a positive result. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/595 "2014-11-02T17:54:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why is it inappropriate to talk about the women who like this behaviour if we are discussing whether or not it’s appropriate behavior? Why is it only the women who do not like it who’s opinion matters? I’m curious how you arrived at this conclusion. Nobody seems to have answered this question clearly and simply, so here’s an answer for you: Women who like and/or seek “this behavior” aren’t relevant to the question because the comments, catcalls and other forms of communication of male interest that we’re discussing -that’s what “this behavior” is shorthand for- are _unsolicited_. IOW, neither you nor the men exhibiting “this behavior” have established whether the recipient ‘likes’ such attention. -You know how you’d be able to tell if a woman ‘likes this behavior’? Because she’s explicitly told you so. If that’s not the case, please act appropriately. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/596 "2014-11-02T18:27:08Z")
I think we should argue about whether or not it’s appropriate for a citizen to pick up a piece of trash on a public walkway, even if he didn’t drop it, and properly dispose of it. After this thread, I’m sure there are a few here who will argue in favor of letting the trash lay in order to not offend the litterbug. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/597 "2014-11-02T21:00:20Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I think we should argue about whether or not it’s appropriate for a citizen to pick up a piece of trash on a public walkway, even if he didn’t drop it, and properly dispose of it. After this thread, I’m sure there are a few here who will argue in favor of letting the trash lay in order to not offend the litterbug. If you’re really sure about that, maybe you should have a nice lie-down. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/598 "2014-11-02T23:32:43Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Oh, I’m going back to parodies, because it’s clear you are a moron. There’s no point in trying to debate you, because your arguments are stupid. Because his arguments are stupid, you’re going back to those parodies? Not much of a traveler, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/599 "2014-11-02T23:41:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because his arguments are stupid, you’re going back to those parodies? > > Not much of a traveler, eh? Explain, please. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930/600 "2014-11-03T00:31:32Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > Explain, please. The parodies are also a stupid argument. For him to eschew participation in a stupid argument by returning to parodies is thus a very short journey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shoshana-roberts-a-street-walker-10-hours-films-herself-being-harassed/702930.md?page=31)