# Shot himself in the face cleaning his rifle **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202 "2015-03-17T14:38:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/61 "2015-03-19T10:58:34Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > …Q: it runs in my mind that a pair of fellows (UK?) who had musical stardom (very briefly) decide to do simultaneous suicides by shotgun - but did not tilt the muzzle. One of the poor slobs survived long enough to squirrel away enough pain meds to finally finish the job. > Anybody know of such a case? It sounds a lot like the case involving [Judas Priest](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/28/the-stacks-the-judas-priest-teen-suicide-trial.html) a few years back. US kids, UK band. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/62 "2015-03-19T16:59:41Z")
Rules of gun safety: 1. A gun is always loaded until you have personally verified with your own senses that it is not. 2. Notwithstanding Rule #1, a gun is still loaded even if you have confirmed that it is not. 3. Don’t point a gun at anything that you don’t want to get shot. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/63 "2015-03-19T18:55:11Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Rules of gun safety: > > 1. A gun is always loaded until you have personally verified with your own senses that it is not. > 2. Notwithstanding Rule #1, a gun is still loaded even if you have confirmed that it is not. > 3. Don’t point a gun at anything that you don’t want to get shot. Those might be _your_ three rules, but they are not the three commonly taught to everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/64 "2015-03-20T17:56:57Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > If the “gun is always loaded,” then there’s no reason to check the chamber, correct? After all, why should I check the chamber if I already “know” it’s loaded? > > In other words, the “gun is always loaded” is a dumb rule, IMO. > > My rules? > > 1. Always know the condition of the weapon by checking the chamber, safety, bolt, mag, etc. > > 2. Regardless of its condition (see #1), treat the weapon as if it were loaded. > > 3. Do not put your finger on the trigger until you’re ready to fire. > > 4. Do not point the muzzle at anything you’re not willing to destroy. > > 5. Know your target, and what’s behind it. Well, yeah, but “the gun is always loaded, even when it’s not” is really just a pithy way of stating your rules #1 and #2. It’s not meant to be taken literally. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/65 "2015-03-20T21:12:41Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > It’s not meant to be taken literally. Then it’s a bad rule. Firearms are serious tools, and you’ll accidently kill someone if you don’t understand the rules. There should be absolutely no ambiguities in the safety rules; the rules must be simple, clear, concise, and interpreted literally. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/66 "2015-03-20T21:34:20Z")
I always thought the rule about “treat the gun as if it is always loaded” was about building a safety _habit_. If you _always_ act as if the gun is loaded and able to fire you are less likely to thoughtlessly do something stupid with it. You’re training your muscles and muscle memory routines to only handle the gun in a certain manner, to the point that doing anything else feels “off” and you’re uncomfortable doing it. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/67 "2015-03-20T23:05:54Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I always thought the rule about “treat the gun as if it is always loaded” was about building a safety _habit_. If you _always_ act as if the gun is loaded and able to fire you are less likely to thoughtlessly do something stupid with it. You’re training your muscles and muscle memory routines to only handle the gun in a certain manner, to the point that doing anything else feels “off” and you’re uncomfortable doing it. I don’t know what Jeff Cooper’s original intent was, but that hits on one important thing. Accidents can happen, although the more trained you are the less likely this is. But even if there is some small chance that one of the rules is violated, as long as you are sticking to the other three a tragedy is averted. If, for example, the dog brushes past a hunter and accidentally hits the trigger, things are safe if the hunter is always aware where his muzzle is pointed. Or even if you are cleaning a gun and are 100% sure that you unloaded it last time but neglect to double check, if you’re practicing safe trigger control and not pointing it away from others things are much safer. But you should still aim for all 4! ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/68 "2015-03-20T23:59:27Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > ::: snip :::: > > Unless, of course, he needed killin’. And more & more people are falling into that category… 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/69 "2015-03-21T00:04:36Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Then it’s a bad rule. > > Firearms are serious tools, and you’ll accidently kill someone if you don’t understand the rules. There should be absolutely no ambiguities in the safety rules; the rules must be simple, clear, concise, and interpreted literally. Oh, for heaven’s sake. “The gun is always loaded” is just another way to say “Treat the gun as if it’s always loaded.” ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/70 "2015-03-21T11:54:23Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Oh, for heaven’s sake. “The gun is always loaded” is just another way to say “Treat the gun as if it’s always loaded.” The point is, you can’t treat every gun as if it were loaded. Unless you were deranged you wouldn’t stick a brass brush down the barrel of a loaded weapon, yet you can’t clean one without doing it. Treating every gun as if it were loaded until I have verified that it is not, and it remains unloaded only as long as it is in my sole and exclusive control is a a better rule. A rule you can’t follow every time isn’t a rule at all, it’s a guideline. I can always follow my rule. I don’t have to violate my rule to clean and maintain my guns, but the “Gun is always loaded people” violate their rule all the time. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/71 "2015-03-21T14:29:51Z")
Guideline, rule. It should be a habit. When cleaning my guns, when I am absolutely sure they are not loaded, I still never allow the barrel to point in a direction that could cause injury. Yep, you need to look down the barrel, but it is a deliberate act. Otherwise the gun is always pointed away. I was on a jury a few years ago. One piece of evidence was a rifle (an SKS if anyone cares). The idiot cop while handling the rifle painted the whole damn room and everyone in it with it. The rifle was later laid on the table in the jury room by a bailiff. Pointing right at the heart of the juror next to me. I don’t care. Yes it was unloaded, but you just don’t do that. I immediately picked up the rifle and put it in a safe location. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/72 "2015-03-22T03:51:59Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > The point is, you can’t treat every gun as if it were loaded. Unless you were deranged you wouldn’t stick a brass brush down the barrel of a loaded weapon, yet you can’t clean one without doing it. > > Treating every gun as if it were loaded until I have verified that it is not, and it remains unloaded only as long as it is in my sole and exclusive control is a a better rule. A rule you can’t follow every time isn’t a rule at all, it’s a guideline. I can always follow my rule. I don’t have to violate my rule to clean and maintain my guns, but the “Gun is always loaded people” violate their rule all the time. I think the “gun is always loaded people” know exactly what they’re doing and they’re probably exactly the same as you, they just don’t feel the need to be ridiculously pedantic about their “rule”. My rule is “don’t be an idiot with a gun”, internally I know that it covers a whole raft of things, but I don’t feel the need to explicitly state them all otherwise I’d drown under the weight of my own internal monologue. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/73 "2015-03-22T16:25:11Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > The idiot cop while handling the rifle painted the whole damn room and everyone in it with it. I often have friends over to shoot. Whenever I see a muzzle pointed my way I shout, “Hey! Watch your muzzle!” Most of the time they acknowledge their error. But every now and then I will get, “But it’s not loaded!” :rolleyes: As if that matters. > [@enipla](#): > > The rifle was later laid on the table in the jury room by a bailiff. Pointing right at the heart of the juror next to me. I don’t have a problem with this as long as it’s not loaded. After all, when I’m walking around a gun show, there are hundreds of guns laying on tables that are pointed at me. But I _do_ have a problem when the firearm is in someone’s hands _and_ the muzzle is pointed in my direction… ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202/74 "2015-03-22T18:58:20Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I often have friends over to shoot. Whenever I see a muzzle pointed my way I shout, “Hey! Watch your muzzle!” Most of the time they acknowledge their error. But every now and then I will get, “But it’s not loaded!” :rolleyes: As if that matters. > I don’t have a problem with this as long as it’s not loaded. After all, when I’m walking around a gun show, there are hundreds of guns laying on tables that are pointed at me. But I _do_ have a problem when the firearm is in someone’s hands _and_ the muzzle is pointed in my direction… For your first point, I don’t understand how people keep sweeping each other. I mean, I’ve seen it happen—I really don’t understand how gun store employees manage not to lose their jobs from all of the muzzle-related idiocy—but how hard is it to make sure the thing’s pointed at the ground, the sky, holstered, or otherwise not at one’s fellow shooters? It’s just common courtesy. As to the second, I do have a problem with it. How hard is it to zip-tie the action open, have a trigger lock mounted, or have a [chamber flag](http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Universal-Firearm-Chamber-6-Piece/dp/B00CJ7F1T2) in it? When the cures are so cheap and easy, I don’t understand why people don’t use them. There’s probably a good reason I’m not understanding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-himself-in-the-face-cleaning-his-rifle/715202.md?page=3)