# Shot while cuffed and prone - justification? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234 "2009-01-07T16:53:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/181 "2009-01-09T06:19:29Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > 2 AM New Year’s Day after a fireworks show downtown. Going home after celebrating. > > … > > Wait, are you trying to imply that the _crowd_ was responsible for Grant’s death?! Yes, I think the crowd contributed to his death. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/182 "2009-01-09T06:22:43Z")
So we have a cop, who is expected to maintain personal control in stressful situations on the job, being excused for failing to do exactly that, and it is the fault of the crowd? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/183 "2009-01-09T06:28:18Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > So we have a cop, who is expected to maintain personal control in stressful situations on the job, being excused for failing to do exactly that, and it is the fault of the crowd? Is English not your primary language? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/184 "2009-01-09T07:47:57Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > So something that someone said is the deciding factor for shooting that person in the back? Just words? Sheesh! Where did I say that? Try to follow along. Try to get it through your head that just because you can watch a video of a cop shooting a guy that doesn’t mean you have all or even enough information to determine exactly what went down and why. We don’t know why this occurred. All we can do is speculate based on incomplete information. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t matter if he’s equiped with a taser or not, that’s just a red herring, he drew a gun aimed it and fired it. All I’m saying is that if a taser becomes part of the cop’s defense/explanation/whatever, it matters whether he was equipped with one, whether he was properly trained, and whether he had his ducks in a row as to how it was equipped and maintained. If it doesn’t, then you’re right, it’s all moot. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/185 "2009-01-09T12:19:22Z")
Well, there’s nothing new, no new developments so far, except for the riots. Here’s hoping that a) this guy get arraigned and indicted quickly, and that he is put in jail for a while. b) that the victim’s family can sue the living crap out of the department so that they don’t have to worry about where food and living expenses are coming from for the rest of their lives. And that the department takes some steps to try and prevent this shit form happening again. I had a friend get a gun pulled on him by a cop, simply for being non-white. It’s scary to know that an accidental discharge can mean death for committing no crime whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/186 "2009-01-09T13:13:05Z")
> [@Sunrazor](#): > > Uh, no. Police universally are told, never pull a gun without intending to use it. NEVER use a gun to “scare” someone. Pull the gun ONLY to defend your own life or someone else’s. NEVER pull the gun unless you intend to kill someone with it. Utterly wrong. That’s a good guideline for citizens with guns. It is NOT what police are told, universally or in any kind of majority. On what evidence did you base this claim? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/187 "2009-01-09T14:27:33Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Sheesh! Where did I say that? Try to follow along. Try to get it through your head that just because you can watch a video of a cop shooting a guy that doesn’t mean you have all or even enough information to determine exactly what went down and why. We don’t know why this occurred. All we can do is speculate based on incomplete information. We do know the officer pulled his gun out and fired it into the back of a person laying on their stomach and being held down. We see his interaction with said individual, the only thing we don’t know is what the officer was thinking because the video nor people are able to read minds. The viideo cleary shows what happened, the people there clearly saw what happened and this video is an accurate record of what they saw. > [@](#): > > All I’m saying is that if a taser becomes part of the cop’s defense/explanation/whatever, it matters whether he was equipped with one, whether he was properly trained, and whether he had his ducks in a row as to how it was equipped and maintained. If it doesn’t, then you’re right, it’s all moot. I’m saying the taser line is thrown out there to set up the notion that it was an accident, it’s a ploy by the BART officials to plant ideas in an attempt to sway public opinion and disccusion on what happened. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/188 "2009-01-09T14:29:30Z")
> [@Sunrazor](#): > > That said, I have no idea, from watching the video numerous times, what the hell happened. There was movement, it looked like some cops were trying to move a suspect, it was impossible to tell bad guys from good guys because nobody wears real uniforms any more, everybody wears black, and there is no way to separate one group from another. All I can see is what appears to be a mild scuffle, then I heard a “pop” and some people jumped back, then started to drag the guy on the ground away. I didn’t see a gun, couldn’t tell where the “pop” came from, nothing. The video shows us nothing. You are clearly not watching the correct video, there’s a video that shows exactly what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/189 "2009-01-09T15:08:37Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > You are clearly not watching the correct video, there’s a video that shows exactly what happened. Link? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/190 "2009-01-09T15:09:45Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > If San Francisco and/or BART have similar regulations, then Mehserle’s excuse carries a lot less weight. SF has nothing to do with it, BART Police are a state agency. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/191 "2009-01-09T15:31:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Link? Previously posted. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/192 "2009-01-09T15:51:15Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > We do know the officer pulled his gun out and fired it into the back of a person laying on their stomach and being held down. We see his interaction with said individual, the only thing we don’t know is what the officer was thinking because the video nor people are able to read minds. The viideo cleary shows what happened, the people there clearly saw what happened and this video is an accurate record of what they saw. You’re the reason magicians’ tricks make people go “ooh” and “aah”. You see what you want to see whether it’s there or not. The video in no way gives a complete picture of what happened. The crowd is so loud, you can’t hear what’s being said between the officers and victim. You can’t see through the body of the officer closest to the camera to determine each players’ exact position and what specifically they were doing throughout the entire incident. But, you think, the \*only \*thing that video doesn’t show is what was going on in the officer’s head and you’re wrong. What were the officer saying? What was the suspect saying? Why were there no handcuffs on the suspect? Without clear sound and better angles, you can’t answer that. That means you don’t have a complete picture of what happened. That’s why we have trials. How hard is that to grasp? Even if you could see everything, which you can’t, without answers to the many questions, you can’t clearly determine whether there \*was \*a threat perceived and what it was based on. Don’t let that stop you from speculating, though. > [@](#): > > I’m saying the taser line is thrown out there to set up the notion that it was an accident, it’s a ploy by the BART officials to plant ideas in an attempt to sway public opinion and disccusion on what happened. Bullshit. So, you’re saying it couldn’t possibly have been an accident? Are you suggesting there’s no way the shooting was anything but intentional? On top of that, what evidence do you have that BART, collectively, is merely interested in protecting the officer? Which BART official has brought up the Taser angle? As far as I can tell, it’s outside observers [speculating](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gO4s1dgxjYfHi3mbqoobWZZomz3gD95JBLF80): [QUOTE=AP] “I suspect he thought he was reaching for his Taser,” said Siddle, founder of PPCT Management Systems, an Illinois company that trains law-enforcement officers in the use of force. “If he was under stress, he would not be able to distinguish between a Taser and his firearm. You have video footage that seems to suggest that this officer made a tragic mistake.” [/QUOTE] You might be saying that reasonable people couldn’t possibly entertain the idea that the shooting might have been accidental unless BART tells us it is. Newsflash: some of us are willing to suspend judgment until more information comes out via the justice system. Now, who’s the victim of spin? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/193 "2009-01-09T15:54:52Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Previously posted. Could you please point to the link you think shows things as clearly as you claim. I’ve clicked on one link of the incident and things were unclear to me. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/194 "2009-01-09T15:55:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I also have a bit of sympathy for the officer. Instead of celebrating the birth of his new son he has to live with killing a person for no good reason and the family of the deceased have to deal with a senseless loss. “Please, your Honor, I know I killed and ate my parents, but have mercy, I recently became an orphan.” ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/195 "2009-01-09T16:08:09Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > “Please, your Honor, I know I killed and ate my parents, but have mercy, I recently became an orphan.” Riiiight. Everything we know about this incident indicates Meserhle is a dangerous psychopath. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/196 "2009-01-09T16:10:50Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Riiiight. Everything we know about this incident indicates Meserhle is a dangerous psychopath. :rolleyes: I don’t think that was meant to equate what the officer did with cannibalism, so much as it was offered as the classic definition of chutzpah. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/197 "2009-01-09T16:13:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Could you please point to the link you think shows things as clearly as you claim. I’ve clicked on one link of the incident and things were unclear to me. Thanks. At the top of page two is a link to a site with video from three different angles. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/198 "2009-01-09T16:21:07Z")
[Link](http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/08/baseballer.shot/index.html?iref=mpstoryview) to a similar shooting, this time a son of a former major-league baseball player. I think that cops get rattled by what they see as a potentially dangerous situation (where they are ignorant of the particulars), and get trigger happy at the slightest provocation real or imagined. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/199 "2009-01-09T16:40:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I don’t think that was meant to equate what the officer did with cannibalism, so much as it was offered as the classic definition of chutzpah. Ok, but I don’t get it. Where’s the chutzpah in expressing sympathy for a guy who is likely to be suffering guilt and is now dealing with all the ramifications of causing a death while trying to do his job as opposed to enjoying his new parenthood? I think all \*\*Magiver \*\*was trying to say is that what should be a joyous time in a new parent’s life, a celebration of life, is being tragically overshadowed by a senseless death. I suppose he should have added the disclaimer that in no way does sympathy for Meserhle take away from sympathy for Grant’s family. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/200 "2009-01-09T16:45:30Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Ok, but I don’t get it. Where’s the chutzpah in expressing sympathy for a guy who is likely to be suffering guilt and is now dealing with all the ramifications of causing a death while trying to do his job as opposed to enjoying his new parenthood? I think all \*\*Magiver \*\*was trying to say is that what should be a joyous time in a new parent’s life, a celebration of life, is being tragically overshadowed by a senseless death. I suppose he should have added the disclaimer that in no way does sympathy for Meserhle take away from sympathy for Grant’s family. True. I’ve kind of slid into the position of 'We don’t know what the officer was thinking and therefore I’m holding my peace on this until the investigation is complete." Again, this isn’t me giving Meserhle a pass…this is just me withholding judgment as to intent. Regardless, he should be charged with at LEAST manslaughter, IMO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=11)