# Shot while cuffed and prone - justification? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234 "2009-01-07T16:53:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/201 "2009-01-09T16:55:20Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > At the top of page two is a link to a site with video from three different angles. I watched all three, and honestly, all I can verify is that: The victim was confrontational (hard to tell exactly what), and for some reason he was pushed to the ground, where it took 2-3 cops to hold him down. Exactly why they did that, and what he was doing, what he said, are all not clear to me. Grant was not passively cooperating but to what extent he was fighting them is not clear. Certainly I can see nothing that required the use of deadly force, but whether Grant needed tasering I honestly don’t know (nor am I saying he did, it’s just that we can’t tell). Then Meserhle stood up, drew his gun, and shot Grant once in the back while the other two cops were still holding Grant. The look of shock on Meserhle’s face and the other officer is very clear to me. There is no doubt to me Meserhle is shocked at what happened. Meserhle clearly deliberately drew his weapon, and clearly was shocked at the shot. Now, that indicates either a accidental discharge or Meserhle thought he was tasering Grant. Or Meserhle is a psycopathic killer _and_ an Oscar level actor, too. I think that last is highly unlikely, does anyone want to go for that? This then _appears_ to be involuntary Manslaughter, as it was a horrible error that took a man’s life. That’s still a violent Felony, note. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/202 "2009-01-09T16:55:42Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > True. I’ve kind of slid into the position of 'We don’t know what the officer was thinking and therefore I’m holding my peace on this until the investigation is complete." Again, this isn’t me giving Meserhle a pass…this is just me withholding judgment as to intent. Regardless, he should be charged with at LEAST manslaughter, IMO. FTR, I agree. I will say that to a certain extent, I can understand why the departments investigating this incident, not just BART, are taking their time in hopes that they are getting all their ducks in a row. This case has to be airtight because either way it ends, there are going to be problems with the public charging impropriety. Plenty of people have already decided it’s murder and they aren’t going to be happy with lesser charges. Also, TPTB have to make sure that there investigation is complete and error-free, so as not to completely blow the case in the courtroom. An acquittal due to poor investigation, but especially one on a technicality, would be \*very \*troublesome for the city. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/203 "2009-01-09T16:59:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I watched all three, and honestly, all I can verify is that: > > The victim was confrontational (hard to tell exactly what), and for some reason he was pushed to the ground, where it took 2-3 cops to hold him down. Exactly why they did that, and what he was doing, what he said, are all not clear to me. Grant was not passively cooperating but to what extent he was fighting them is not clear. Certainly I can see nothing that required the use of deadly force, but whether Grant needed tasering I honestly don’t know (nor am I saying he did, it’s just that we can’t tell). Then Meserhle stood up, drew his gun, and shot Grant once in the back while the other two cops were still holding Grant. The look of shock on Meserhle’s face and the other officer is very clear to me. There is no doubt to me Meserhle is shocked at what happened. > > Meserhle clearly deliberately drew his weapon, and clearly was shocked at the shot. Now, that indicates either a accidental discharge or Meserhle thought he was tasering Grant. Or Meserhle is a psycopathic killer _and_ an Oscar level actor, too. I think that last is highly unlikely, does anyone want to go for that? > > This then _appears_ to be involuntary Manslaughter, as it was a horrible error that took a man’s life. That’s still a violent Felony, note. I agree with all of the above. I was only pointing out the link to the other angles. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/204 "2009-01-09T17:20:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This then _appears_ to be involuntary Manslaughter, as it was a horrible error that took a man’s life. That’s still a violent Felony, note. What usually happens to civilians who have committed a felony? Aren’t they usually hauled down to the station for questioning and/or arraignment? And if they do walk the streets again afterward, isn’t it because they’ve posted bail? Has any of this happened to Mehserle? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/205 "2009-01-09T17:29:25Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Previously posted. I have viewed the posted video, and I don’t see things as clearly as claimed. Perhaps you could give the time stamp(s) on the video where key events occur, such as clearly seeing the victim and what he’s doing when he’s shot? In the video I saw, the view of the victim was blocked by another officer. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/206 "2009-01-09T17:34:06Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > What usually happens to civilians who have committed a felony? Aren’t they usually hauled down to the station for questioning and/or arraignment? And if they do walk the streets again afterward, isn’t it because they’ve posted bail? > > Has any of this happened to Mehserle? I’m sure you can recognize that this incident is in no way at all like any other incident in which a civilian shoots another civilian. It’s not too hard, just give it a try. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/207 "2009-01-09T18:08:03Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > What usually happens to civilians who have committed a felony? Aren’t they usually hauled down to the station for questioning and/or arraignment? And if they do walk the streets again afterward, isn’t it because they’ve posted bail? > > Has any of this happened to Mehserle? Well, Mehserle does not appear to be a flight risk. But, when the DA is in doubt as to what to charge a potential felon with, it could take quite some time. While I don’t think that Involuntary Manslaughter would be the incorrect charge, if evidences comes up that Grant and Mehserle had a personal beef going on from a previous encounter, it could be Murder instead of Manslaughter. Why do you want the DA to rush to judgement witout having all the facts? In fact, IMHO, the DA should not indict Mehserle, he should convene a Grand Jury and ask them for an Indictment. Testimony can be given to the Grand Jury under seal, and Mehserle will have to answer questions. This also will prevent second-guessing the DA. No matter what charges he brings, someone will be unhappy. Right now there are dudes who are calling for it being premeditated 1st degree murder (the first link here to the video claims exactly that!), and others claiming it was an accident. We don’t need more riots out here. Bricker, I agree- I can’t see what Grant is doing right before he is shot. There’s a struggle going on of some sort, but that’s about it. And, there’s some reason why a cop pointed at Grant and they went over to subdue or cuff him. If anyone goes to the second video cite in this thread, where there are three vids, the middle one shows a number of large scary dudes (in hoodies and what I’d say is typical gangbanger attire) repeatly approaching the police in what I see as a threatening manner. IMHO, those idiots are what caused this tragedy to unfold. Not to mention everyone screaming at the cops. It was very bad and scary sitrep. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/208 "2009-01-09T19:10:16Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > You’re the reason magicians’ tricks make people go “ooh” and “aah”. You see what you want to see whether it’s there or not. The video in no way gives a complete picture of what happened. The crowd is so loud, you can’t hear what’s being said between the officers and victim. You can’t see through the body of the officer closest to the camera to determine each players’ exact position and what specifically they were doing throughout the entire incident. But, you think, the \*only \*thing that video doesn’t show is what was going on in the officer’s head and you’re wrong. What were the officer saying? What was the suspect saying? Why were there no handcuffs on the suspect? Without clear sound and better angles, you can’t answer that. That means you don’t have a complete picture of what happened. > That’s why we have trials. How hard is that to grasp? I see someone shot in the back while they are face down on the floor, they are dead as a result of that, did something else happen? What the possibly could the officer be saying in this scenario? What dialogue do you imagine in your mind that justifies what happened? > [@](#): > > Even if you could see everything, which you can’t, without answers to the many questions, you can’t clearly determine whether there \*was \*a threat perceived and what it was based on. Don’t let that stop you from speculating, though. Why is it that only that officer percieves the threat? Notice that the office that’s holding Grant down isn’t even startled when he’s shot, he doesn’t even go for his weapon nor does any other officer even though a shot is fired. > [@](#): > > Bullshit. So, you’re saying it couldn’t possibly have been an accident? Are you suggesting there’s no way the shooting was anything but intentional? On top of that, what evidence do you have that BART, collectively, is merely interested in protecting the officer? Which BART official has brought up the Taser angle? As far as I can tell, it’s outside observers [speculating](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gO4s1dgxjYfHi3mbqoobWZZomz3gD95JBLF80): At which stage in the shooting do you see the accident happening? Is it when he puts his hand on the gun? Pulls it out of the holster? Points it with both hands? You don’t know where the taser option came from you’re justing buying into it because you don’t want to believe what happened you want another explanation. You want to believe in the good of the white officer and the bad of the black man that was shot. > [@](#): > > You might be saying that reasonable people couldn’t possibly entertain the idea that the shooting might have been accidental unless BART tells us it is. Newsflash: some of us are willing to suspend judgment until more information comes out via the justice system. Now, who’s the victim of spin? You want to believe in a reality outside of what happened, you want some magical gun to appear, some magical words or dialogue to surface that supports your notion of what didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/209 "2009-01-09T19:13:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have viewed the posted video, and I don’t see things as clearly as claimed. Perhaps you could give the time stamp(s) on the video where key events occur, such as clearly seeing the victim and what he’s doing when he’s shot? In the video I saw, the view of the victim was blocked by another officer. i think it’s clear he’s laying on his stomach with an officer holding him down when he’s shot. You don’t see that? This also supported by the fact that he is shot in the back and still on his stomach until they roll him over but don’t have a clue as to what to do next. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/210 "2009-01-09T19:14:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If anyone goes to the second video cite in this thread, where there are three vids, the middle one shows a number of large scary dudes (in hoodies and what I’d say is typical gangbanger attire) repeatly approaching the police in what I see as a threatening manner. IMHO, those idiots are what caused this tragedy to unfold. Not to mention everyone screaming at the cops. It was very bad and scary sitrep. Are they scary because they are people of color? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/211 "2009-01-09T19:21:04Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > i think it’s clear he’s laying on his stomach with an officer holding him down when he’s shot. You don’t see that? This also supported by the fact that he is shot in the back and still on his stomach until they roll him over but don’t have a clue as to what to do next. Yes, but what were his hands doing? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/212 "2009-01-09T19:23:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Testimony can be given to the Grand Jury under seal, and Mehserle will have to answer questions. This also will prevent second-guessing the DA. No, he won’t have to answer questions. He’s still protected by the Fifth Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/213 "2009-01-09T19:24:01Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I’m sure you can recognize that this incident is in no way at all like any other incident in which a civilian shoots another civilian. It’s not too hard, just give it a try. This incident is _worse_. This is a man who is supposed to protect public safety. He’s supposed to be trained and he’s supposed to know what he’s doing. He had a responsibility to his pinned down victim’s safety and he instead shot the guy in the back. This isn’t a cop that shot somebody during the middle of a bank robbery. This isn’t even a cop that shot some guy who spun around in the dark with a cellphone in his hand. This is a cop that we know, _for certain_, shot an unarmed and pinned down man in the back. Just because he’s a cop and was on the clock at the time of his colossal deadly fuck up, he gets to be treated differently by the justice system even though it is possible (probable, IMO) that he committed a major felony that resulted in the death of a human being? I’m trying to see the other side here but I haven’t yet found a way to see this as anything less than an outrage. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/214 "2009-01-09T19:24:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, but what were his hands doing? Reaching for his wallet, a cell phone, an imaginary gun, knife, partical beam weapon? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/215 "2009-01-09T19:28:13Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Reaching for his wallet, a cell phone, an imaginary gun, knife, partical beam weapon? I don’t know. I can’t tell. But there is someone that can. The poster in this thread that claimed, > [@](#): > > You are clearly not watching the correct video, there’s a video that shows exactly what happened. So that poster is evidently in possession of a video that shows the victim’s hands at the moment of the shot. I can’t figure out why the scurrilous scamp refuses to reveal where this video can be found, but perhaps you might take it up with him and force him to reveal his secret information. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/216 "2009-01-09T19:35:01Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Reaching for his wallet, a cell phone, an imaginary gun, knife, partical beam weapon? It was my impression, from watching the videos, that the suspect/victim was resisting being handcuffed. He was not striking anyone, or kicking, or attempting to bite. But it seemed that he was trying to prevent them from bringing his hands close enough together to allow them be cuffed together (which is with the wrists about 4 to 6 inches apart). Not violent, but not cooperating, either. (In the OP video link, there is a man who offers no resistance at all, and it takes only one officer to cuff him, before they move on to Grant.) I would think two men should be able to force the arm of a single resistor into the required. But in some jurisdictions, the police are not expected to have to put up with trying to outwrestle someone. Mehserle may have been intended to use a taser as a compliance device, but pulled a gun instead. If so, this moves the charges from 1st degree homicide to manslaughter/negligent homicide. (IANAL, & IMO.) > [@](#): > > Are they scary because they are people of color? Skin color is not what makes them intimidating. “Body language”, tone of voice, facial expression, words expressed. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/217 "2009-01-09T19:44:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know. I can’t tell. > > But there is someone that can. The poster in this thread that claimed, > > So that poster is evidently in possession of a video that shows the victim’s hands at the moment of the shot. I can’t figure out why the scurrilous scamp refuses to reveal where this video can be found, but perhaps you might take it up with him and force him to reveal his secret information. Look, there’s no need for thinly veiled personal attacks, this is after all “Great Debate”. So in your mind what sign language caused Grant to be shot in the back? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/218 "2009-01-09T20:05:56Z")
I don’t think sign language had anything to do with it… I think it was that a cop pulled out a gun, pointed it at somebody he didn’t need to shoot, and pulled the trigger. Whether or not he pulled the trigger on purpose is the one and only question here, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Apex\_Rogers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Apex\_Rogers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apex_Rogers)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/219 "2009-01-09T20:13:24Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Ok, but I don’t get it. Where’s the chutzpah in expressing sympathy for a guy who is likely to be suffering guilt and is now dealing with all the ramifications of causing a death while trying to do his job as opposed to enjoying his new parenthood? I think all \*\*Magiver \*\*was trying to say is that what should be a joyous time in a new parent’s life, a celebration of life, is being tragically overshadowed by a senseless death. I suppose he should have added the disclaimer that in no way does sympathy for Meserhle take away from sympathy for Grant’s family. **Magiver** has shown _no_ sympathy for Grant’s family, so it’s kind of curious he’d go out of his way to mention something like this with nary a word for the man who was killed or his family. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/220 "2009-01-09T20:21:52Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Look, there’s no need for thinly veiled personal attacks, this is after all “Great Debate”. Nor was there a personal attack, veiled or otherwise. I was pointing out sarcastically that YOU were the poster who said there’s a video that shows exactly what happened. > [@](#): > > So in your mind what sign language caused Grant to be shot in the back? I don’t know. I am attacking your claim that there’s a video that “shows exactly what happened.” Why would my mind need to speculate on what sign language he used? Why don’t we check the video that shows exactly what happened? If there is such a video, tell me what his hands were doing. If there isn’t, retract the claim. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=12)