# Shot while cuffed and prone - justification? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234 "2009-01-07T16:53:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/221 "2009-01-09T20:25:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, he won’t have to answer questions. He’s still protected by the Fifth Amendment. Ok, but he has to _appear_ to have questions put to him. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/222 "2009-01-09T20:27:49Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > I see someone shot in the back while they are face down on the floor, they are dead as a result of that, did something else happen? Did someone say something else happened? Based on the video, I think it’s quite obvious that Meserhle, a BART cop, shot Grant, a civilian, in the back while Grant was on the ground. Based on the information released in the media, I can say that Meserhle’s actions resulted in Grant’s death. Beyond that, I can’t say anything for certain. Nor is it up to me to say or determine the outcome. > [@](#): > > What the possibly could the officer be saying in this scenario? I don’t know because I wasn’t there, but clearly there’s information I don’t have. > [@](#): > > What dialogue do you imagine in your mind that justifies what happened? It doesn’t matter what I can imagine because my imagination doesn’t represent the facts of this case. Hell, anything is possible, and whether everything that was said is relevant to the shooting is also beyond my knowledge. For the umpteenth time, I’m not trying to justify the shooting. Just trying to point out that speculation based on incomplete information is stupid and calling the cop a murderer is dangerously incitant. > [@](#): > > Why is it that only that officer percieves the threat? How do you know this? Because he’s the only one that pulled his weapon out? There were three cops involved in restraining Grant. I wonder why. > [@](#): > > Notice that the office that’s holding Grant down isn’t even startled when he’s shot, he doesn’t even go for his weapon nor does any other officer even though a shot is fired. Really? He looked startled to me. Stepping back right after the shot indicates a reaction. Could be he didn’t expect the shot. Who would’ve? Let’s speculate some more: Meserhle could have been shocked too if he didn’t expect or intend to fire his weapon. Maybe the other cop didn’t go for his weapon because he generally expects cops to use their service weapon responsibly and Meserhle’s actions were out of the ordinary (I’d say they were, thank god), but at the same time, knowing Meserhle, he didn’t feel Meserhle was a threat to the safety of others. Maybe he should have considering Meserhle just killed a man. [sarcasm]It’s obvious by Meserhle’s ensuing rampage that the cops should have immediately tackled him and placed Meserhle in a chokehold while they cuffed him and threw him in the back of the paddy wagon. [/sarcasm] > [@](#): > > At which stage in the shooting do you see the accident happening? Is this rhetorical? Um, let’s see, when a guy got shot? I can’t imagine an officer would just execute a guy in a train station surrounded by an irritated crowd of onlookers. > [@](#): > > Is it when he puts his hand on the gun? Pulls it out of the holster? Points it with both hands? If you’re asking me at what point I think the incident started going south for Meserhle it’s when he pulled out his service weapon as, hindsight being 20/20, I don’t really see justification for pointing a gun at an unarmed man on the ground when you have that much manpower involved. If you’re asking me at what point it went south for Grant, I’d have to say I’m wondering what actions he took that necessitated three cops stopping what they were doing to put him face down on the ground. The guy next to him that didn’t get shot was on his knees and the other guy next to him that didn’t get shot was sitting there with his hands up in front of his face. > [@](#): > > You don’t know where the taser option came from you’re justing buying into it because you don’t want to believe what happened you want another explanation. I think I quoted the guy I read that brought up the taser issue, so I do know where it came from. But you’re right, it could be a conspiracy and the guy is actually being paid to say that in the media by BART to mislead the public. :rolleyes: Quite frankly, I’m not that convinced of the taser angle anyway. > [@](#): > > You want to believe in the good of the white officer and the bad of the black man that was shot. Yup, you got me. I’d like to believe that police officers aren’t corrupt and don’t just shoot people for shits and grins. I’d like to believe that all officers are properly trained and never, ever let their humanness cause them to make a mistake that ends up being the death of someone. Reality, unfortunately, means that my beliefs are not always correct, although at the same they are not always wrong. Oh and while you’re smearing me, you may as well add that I believe that everyone who gets shot and killed by police officers deserved it, especially the black men who are, of course, always bad. After all, it’s true, right? :smack: > [@](#): > > You want to believe in a reality outside of what happened, you want some magical gun to appear, some magical words or dialogue to surface that supports your notion of what didn’t happen. Honestly, I want to believe that level-headedness prevails. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/223 "2009-01-09T20:28:57Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > It was my impression, from watching the videos, that the suspect/victim was resisting being handcuffed. He was not striking anyone, or kicking, or attempting to bite. But it seemed that he was trying to prevent them from bringing his hands close enough together to allow them be cuffed together (which is with the wrists about 4 to 6 inches apart). Not violent, but not cooperating, either. > Skin color is not what makes them intimidating. “Body language”, tone of voice, facial expression, words expressed. I have the same impression, myself. Also dressing like gangbangers, whether or not they really are. In any case, it’s stupid as hell to keep coming close to the police in a sitrep like that, and it only coudl makes things worse. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/224 "2009-01-09T20:29:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ok, but he has to _appear_ to have questions put to him. I don’t quite follow this. I don’t know what the rules are in California, but the process of compelling the target of a grand jury investigation to appear before the grand jury is not simple. In some jurisdictions, for example, a target would get immunity, by law, if he appeared before a grand jury. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/225 "2009-01-09T20:36:40Z")
> [@Apex\_Rogers](#): > > **Magiver** has shown _no_ sympathy for Grant’s family, so it’s kind of curious he’d go out of his way to mention something like this with nary a word for the man who was killed or his family. I don’t think it’s curious when there are so many people who want to hang Meserhle out to dry with nary a concern for his family. ---
**Author:** ![Roulette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8dc957/32.png) [@Roulette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roulette)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/226 "2009-01-09T21:48:06Z")
Why would I have any concern for the cop’s family? His actions are his own, as are the consequences. He shot and killed a man. A lot of people filmed him doing it. The video makes it appear that at the very least, he should expect manslaughter charges brought up against him for his actions. His family doesn’t enter into it. His actions, on video for the world to see, make him a killer. The only thing left to decide is if he’s a guilty of murder, manslaughter, or if there is another explanation. That should be the decision of a jury of his peers. I don’t care if he’s got a newborn and a wife. That doesn’t enter into the discussion of why this cop pulled out his pistol and shot a prone man in the back. Unless there is some mystery evidence or testimony out there that says different, we have a video of a man shooting another man in front of a number of police officers. Accidental or not, a civilian would have been arrested on the spot. He would have been read his rights, offered an attorney and thrown in a jail cell until a court could be set up to begin the judicial proceedings. Meserhle is still at home with his kid. So far, he’s voluntarily resigned. He, AFAIK, has yet to even be question regarding the event, let alone arrested. Heck, they’ve already filed charges again protesters. But not the cop. And I wonder, if the entire thing hadn’t been taped and put online, would he have even resigned yet? Would he have faced any real consequences? The cynic in me really wonders. ---
**Author:** ![fifty-six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fifty-six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fifty-six)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/227 "2009-01-09T22:15:15Z")
The other restraining officer was put into danger. Tazer or gun. ’ Just standing up was a bad choice. If the restrained person was reaching for “Something” the correct action would be to continue with the restraint. Not take the time to stand and release him a bit by standing. That dude could have bucked the other officer into the line of fire by moving what looks like a very small distance. Knee on back - shot in back. I don’t know what happened but that other officer had a gun discharge awfully close to him by a man that just has his restraints loosened. Also if it was the type of Tazar that one can shoot while touching the person there was no need to stand. Just keep a knee on him and Tazer away. I have spent some time in the Bering Sea. It is a dangerous place and notorious for bringing down boats. Shipwreck/sinking stories are common. A common thread among them is that All Shipwrecks are a series of mistakes. Never just one. They seasoned captains and crew can usually count 5 or more problems when a person dies at sea or a boat goes down with out reading the full investigations. The Coast Guard probably can get to 10 or more. Policing is dangerous as well. And in a shooting death such as this one. I bet there are probably at least 5 mistakes. As for the argument that the person deserved to get shot and or proper protocol was followed. BUNK. The crowd is mentioned a bunch. I see several officers that probably could be doing a better job controlling the area. That is one I think we could get to about 5-10 mistakes in just a few posts. ---
**Author:** ![fifty-six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fifty-six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fifty-six)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/228 "2009-01-09T22:20:56Z")
> [@Roulette](#): > > And I wonder, if the entire thing hadn’t been taped and put online, would he have even resigned yet? Would he have faced any real consequences? The cynic in me really wonders. Yes for the cell phone naysayers this sure is a great argument. Big brother may have been watching us for a long time. It looks like the little brother has been doing a bit of watching as well. Maybe even more intently. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/229 "2009-01-10T00:58:30Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I don’t think it’s curious when there are so many people who want to hang Meserhle out to dry with nary a concern for his family. Why should we be concerened about his family? He’s the killer not Grant. He still has an opportunity for a life and so does his family and they still have each other whereas the Grant family no longer has him because he’s dead. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/230 "2009-01-10T05:34:25Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Why should we be concerened about his family? He’s the killer not Grant. He still has an opportunity for a life and so does his family and they still have each other whereas the Grant family no longer has him because he’s dead. I’m not saying you should be concerned about Meserhle’s family, but don’t go suggesting that someone who is doesn’t give a shit about Grant’s family. Some of us are capable of having compassion for someone who may very well be regretting, like you couldn’t imagine, he ever got out of bed that morning. I know how I’d feel if I made a mistake that ended up killing someone. It’d be a bitch to live with that knowledge. Meserhle’s family is not unaffected by this either. Apparently right now they get to live in abject terror to boot. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/231 "2009-01-10T17:01:51Z")
> [@Krav\_Manga](#): > > Please. Dollars to donuts that Grant had a rap sheet a mile long. Maybe even two miles. What does that matter? The only possible grounds that I can even imagine for the scenario shown in the videos would be that the suspect (Grant) had somehow gotten a weapon in his hands, even though they were cuffed. Stranger things have happened, but it sure as hell doesn’t look like that was the case here. I’m a former cop. I stand up for law enforcement in the face of the garbage they are accused of on a daily basis. But based on watching the videos taken from different angles, I can only hope that the DA’s office indicts the officer for murder. There’s no justification for what he did. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/232 "2009-01-10T20:34:15Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I can agree with you there, and I’m not pleased that evidently the cop has not actually had to invoke his fifth amendment right, which is what I would expect him to do at the point he does have to start answering questions. I find it understandable to be irritated that an arrest warrant hasn’t already been issued yet. I do think it’s a grave error on law enforcement’s part that they don’t seem to charge officers as often as they should. I don’t understand why that would be other than to protect their own and the idea that admitting error undermines public confidence. > > Sorry if I don’t jump to conclusions on this case, though. I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt that they won’t do the right thing here. I’ll wait to see how this plays out before I make any judgments about whether they’re protecting the officer. He quit the department almost a week later so he could invoke the 5th. A week later was when the 1st questions were to be asked. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/233 "2009-01-10T20:47:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The look of shock on Meserhle’s face and the other officer is very clear to me. There is no doubt to me Meserhle is shocked at what happened. In which of the various grainy cell phone videos available is the look on anyone’s face “Very clear”? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/234 "2009-01-10T20:49:32Z")
I wouldn’t say there’s a clear look on anyone’s face, but the body language speaks volumes to me. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/235 "2009-01-10T21:07:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have the same impression, myself. > > Also dressing like gangbangers, whether or not they really are. > > In any case, it’s stupid as hell to keep coming close to the police in a sitrep like that, and it only coudl makes things worse. I could not agree more. Aproach once quitely and ask question depending on responce continue asking or withdraw after all these are men with guns. And they do make mistakes. And you could unfairly be hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/236 "2009-01-10T21:18:35Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Why should we be concerened about his family? He’s the killer not Grant. He still has an opportunity for a life and so does his family and they still have each other whereas the Grant family no longer has him because he’s dead. Two families have the posibility of being destroyed because of a wrong action. Do not be so hard to wish his family be destroyed and have joy over it. It looks to me the cop has jail time coming for being at best stupid. But possably careless or indifferent. His wife and child did not deserve what is going to happen to them. Put yourself in their position how would you fell. MY heart goes out the the Grant family they should not have had what happen happen. No amount of money collected from BART will make up for the empty chair in their home. But BART should also pay for not being sure their officers have the proper attitude or training. The penility needs to be enough that the department and the officers will make sure that it never happens again. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/237 "2009-01-10T22:57:33Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > “Please, your Honor, I know I killed and ate my parents, but have mercy, I recently became an orphan.” This was in response to what I said in post 173: \*\*Instead of celebrating the birth of his new son he has to live with killing a person for no good reason and the family of the deceased have to deal with a senseless loss. \*\* I don’t know how you could make a callous statement like this but don’t direct this pointless bullshit at me. You want to make light of the situation then quote yourself. > [@Apex\_Rogers](#): > > **Magiver** has shown _no_ sympathy for Grant’s family, so it’s kind of curious he’d go out of his way to mention something like this with nary a word for the man who was killed or his family. See above. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/238 "2009-01-11T03:43:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In which of the various grainy cell phone videos available is the look on anyone’s face “Very clear”? Check with **EasyPhil**. He has a video in which apparently everything can be clearly seen. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/239 "2009-01-11T03:53:14Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > The penility needs to be enough that the department and the officers will make sure that it never happens again. I would certainly call Mesehrle a dick. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/240 "2009-01-11T04:08:25Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > No. They’re instructed not to pull a gun unless they are WILLING to use it. In other words, they don’t have to fire, but they have to be ready to do so. > > This is exactly why you routinely see police officers keep their guns trained on a perp without actually firing. They’re ready to do so, but that doesn’t mean that they will. Yes, I got the semantics wrong. But I think we agree that police offices don’t pull out their guns willy-nilly just to scare people – they do so with every intention of pulling the trigger, if necessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=13)