# Shot while cuffed and prone - justification? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234 "2009-01-07T16:53:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/241 "2009-01-11T14:14:20Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Two families have the posibility of being destroyed because of a wrong action. Do not be so hard to wish his family be destroyed and have joy over it. Thinking about the family that has had a loved oned killed is not the same thing as wishing that the family of the killer is destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/242 "2009-01-11T14:17:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Check with **EasyPhil**. He has a video in which apparently everything can be clearly seen. The videos linked to in this thread clearly show you what happened unless you want to believe something else happened. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/243 "2009-01-11T23:11:04Z")
> [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](#): > > The obvious answer is to stay the hell out of Oakland - very possibly the worst city in the US. Detroit would like a word with you. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/244 "2009-01-11T23:22:29Z")
Having watched this terrible incident as filmed, I cannot imagine any scenario in which the shooting of a man handcuffed and laying on his stomach while surrounded by three police officers is justified and is anything other than murder. # I was born in Detroit and taught there for 34 years. Lived for for a time too as an adult. So please, lets cut the Detroit jokes. _Detroit: where the weak are killed and eaten._ ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/245 "2009-01-11T23:27:20Z")
Well, to be a police officer in California you have to be 20 years old and go to through seven months of low-calorie coursework. Honestly, what do you expect? Seems to me the State of California should think about demanding more education and training before they start handing out firearms en masse. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/246 "2009-01-12T06:38:01Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > The videos linked to in this thread clearly show you what happened unless you want to believe something else happened. Did the videos show a true Scotsman carrying porridge through the station? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/247 "2009-01-12T17:15:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Did the videos show a true Scotsman carrying porridge through the station? I can understand you wanting to be some logical and morally acceptable explanation of why the officer killed this person so the cognitive dissonance that you’re exhibiting on this matter is quite understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/248 "2009-01-13T08:16:03Z")
Hey, I’m back. Sorry for posing questions and fading; transatlantic moves kinda threw my schedule off. Anyway - **Roulette** phrased it quite well. I don’t want to see Mehserle hung out to dry but I do want him called to account for his actions, something that is expected of civilians put in the same situation, and something that Mehserle has so far successfully maneuvered to avoid. If the situation had been reversed - Grant shot Mehserle while on duty and it was captured on film - would Grant be home with his wife and child, not worrying about any upcoming questioning or investigation? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/249 "2009-01-13T11:16:02Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Hey, I’m back. Sorry for posing questions and fading; transatlantic moves kinda threw my schedule off. > > Anyway - **Roulette** phrased it quite well. I don’t want to see Mehserle hung out to dry but I do want him called to account for his actions, something that is expected of civilians put in the same situation, and something that Mehserle has so far successfully maneuvered to avoid. If the situation had been reversed - Grant shot Mehserle while on duty and it was captured on film - would Grant be home with his wife and child, not worrying about any upcoming questioning or investigation? No way. He would have been questioned within hours. I don’t know if the news media got it wrong but the officer hadn’t been questioned for 5 days. That falls into the category of WTH? ---
**Author:** ![jessesheeran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@jessesheeran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jessesheeran)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/250 "2009-01-13T11:23:24Z")
the police we not trying that hard to control the situation. their sloppiness in performing their duty was that fault, and it is going to be frustrating until we hear this police force admit it, and announce the intent to change it ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/251 "2009-01-13T11:37:18Z")
> [@jessesheeran](#): > > the police we not trying that hard to control the situation. their sloppiness in performing their duty was that fault, > > and it is going to be frustrating until we hear this police force admit it, and announce the intent to change it And how were they suppose to control the crowd? Did you see the video of people advancing on them? It looked like one of them took a swing at an officer. This started with police responding to fights and the crowd thought it was a group participation event. If they did the classic “pile on” with the person who originally resisted then the crowd would have ratcheted it up a notch in response to police brutality. Why the police officer drew his gun I have no clue but it was a circus from the git-go with the crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/252 "2009-01-13T14:53:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And how were they suppose to control the crowd? Did you see the video of people advancing on them? It looked like one of them took a swing at an officer. This started with police responding to fights and the crowd thought it was a group participation event. If they did the classic “pile on” with the person who originally resisted then the crowd would have ratcheted it up a notch in response to police brutality. I think the crowd would have reacted better to another officer leaning over and holding one of this guy’s arms in place than to an officer tasering him in the back. He was already pinned down it’s not like they have to wrestle him to the ground or hit him with an asp a few times. As it was, from the time he was pinned they only gave it about 20 seconds before putting a round in his back. That’s not exactly giving it the old college try. This is all completely tangential to the point anyway. Even if the crowd suddenly rioted and attacked the officers, there still would be no reason for shooting a pinned down man in the back. I understand that an unruly crowd can raise stress levels, but that doesn’t justify or even mitigate what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/253 "2009-01-13T20:11:21Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > I think the crowd would have reacted better to another officer leaning over and holding one of this guy’s arms in place than to an officer tasering him in the back. He was already pinned down it’s not like they have to wrestle him to the ground or hit him with an asp a few times. As it was, from the time he was pinned they only gave it about 20 seconds before putting a round in his back. That’s not exactly giving it the old college try. Well I agree with you on how the individual was handled, I was talking about the crowd. Been there, done that when a crowd gets out of hand. They were already spooled with the initial confrontation. One thing feeds on another. > [@omgzebras](#): > > This is all completely tangential to the point anyway. Even if the crowd suddenly rioted and attacked the officers, there still would be no reason for shooting a pinned down man in the back. I understand that an unruly crowd can raise stress levels, but that doesn’t justify or even mitigate what happened. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/254 "2009-01-14T06:56:57Z")
Latest news: The BART policeman has been arrested: [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/13/BAM615A08A.DTL&tsp=1](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/13/BAM615A08A.DTL&tsp=1) Ed ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/255 "2009-01-14T08:42:00Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Latest news: The BART policeman has been arrested: > > [Client Challenge](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/13/BAM615A08A.DTL&tsp=1) > > Ed Lets see, that would be Tuesday the 13th? 13 days to sit him down for a serious discussion. I’d like THAT investigated as well. If I shot a cop I would be in custody explaining something to someone on day 1. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/256 "2009-01-14T12:25:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If I shot a cop I would be in custody explaining something to someone on day 1. No, you would be dead on day 1. ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/257 "2009-01-14T12:47:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Lets see, that would be Tuesday the 13th? 13 days to sit him down for a serious discussion. I’d like THAT investigated as well. If I shot a cop I would be in custody explaining something to someone on day 1. True that, and there would be far fewer people speculating whether you accidentally shot a cop and expressing sympathy for your family because you would lose your _job_ as a result of your actions. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/258 "2009-01-14T16:26:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Lets see, that would be Tuesday the 13th? 13 days to sit him down for a serious discussion. I’d like THAT investigated as well. If I shot a cop I would be in custody explaining something to someone on day 1. He’s not explaining something to someone. He’s been arrested for murder. Ed ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/259 "2009-01-14T16:58:15Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > This is all completely tangential to the point anyway. Even if the crowd suddenly rioted and attacked the officers, there still would be no reason for shooting a pinned down man in the back. I understand that an unruly crowd can raise stress levels, but that doesn’t justify or even mitigate what happened. No one here has said that Grant deserved to be shot. So, you guys can stop beating that strawman. Or, posting it over and over and over. That was conceded Page 1 (and page 2, and page 3, and page 4…) There are _possible_ sitreps where the Police _might_ have needed to _stun_ Clark, leading to the idea that the cop meant to tase Clark but drew his gun instead. Making this a horrible accident and thus Manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/260 "2009-01-14T17:09:16Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > He’s not explaining something to someone. He’s been arrested for murder. > > Ed In _Nevada_. On a fugitive warrant. Another one for the WTH list. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=14)