# Shot while cuffed and prone - justification? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234 "2009-01-07T16:53:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/261 "2009-01-14T17:11:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There are _possible_ sitreps where the Police _might_ have needed to _stun_ Clark I think we’ve gone through this one as well; the fact that the justification/blame for trying to use a taser has moved from Grant (not Clark) to the crowd surrounding the incident shows that particular argument doesn’t have a very strong leg to stand on, either. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/262 "2009-01-14T17:38:26Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > In _Nevada_. On a fugitive warrant. Another one for the WTH list. WTH what? It’s been reported that he’s received death threats which is not all that surprising. Presumably he’s familiar with Lake Tahoe, which borders CA and NV? Is there any indication that he was hiding from the police? Reports I’m reading indicate he’s cooperative. I fail to see what you think is so nefarious about extradition procedures in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/263 "2009-01-14T18:03:01Z")
Resigning so as to avoid an internal investigation and then bailing the state? That’s not cooperative by any stretch of the imagination. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/264 "2009-01-14T18:12:40Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > I think we’ve gone through this one as well; the fact that the justification/blame for trying to use a taser has moved from Grant (not Clark) to the crowd surrounding the incident shows that particular argument doesn’t have a very strong leg to stand on, either. It has not, it has provided a reason why the cops might have been extra nervous. We really have no idea of what Clark was doing while the PD was holding him down. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/265 "2009-01-14T18:12:55Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Resigning so as to avoid an internal investigation and then bailing the state? That’s not cooperative by any stretch of the imagination. Wait…are we talking about the same thing? Your post alludes that he’s trying to avoid arrest. [On the contrary](http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_11447812?source=most_viewed): [[QUOTE=MercuryNews.com](http://QUOTE=MercuryNews.com)] Mehserle has been cooperative and is housed in a segregated area of the facility and on a “precautionary health and welfare watch.” … According to a statement released by the Douglas County Sherriff, authorities in Nevada followed “investigative leads that led them to believe Mehserle was located at the 1000 block of Skyland Drive in Zephyr Cove. Once Douglas County authorities received confirmation the arrest warrant had been issued, officers contacted Mehserle’s Sacramento-based attorney, Christopher Miller, and advised him there was an active warrant for his client’s arrest.” Miller reportedly called Mehserle, “who in turn exited the residence and surrendered.” Calls to Miller were not returned but his office confirmed the arrest. Skyland Drive appears to be a stone’s throw away from Highway 50, and less than a mile from the waters of Lake Tahoe. [/QUOTE] In any case, Zephyr Cove, NV is just over the border from CA in the Lake Tahoe area. I’m trying real hard to figure out how that looks like he was running. As I noted, alleged death threats reportedly made him feel he and his family were not safe in the Oakland area. It kind of makes sense to leave, don’t think? Could be his family or a friend of the family has a house there. It seems his attorney and the authorities knew where he was. Why are you so suspicious? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/266 "2009-01-14T18:19:29Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > In _Nevada_. On a fugitive warrant. Another one for the WTH list. He wasn’t asked to not leave CA, and a “fugitive warrant” does not mean what you seem to be implying: > **[Integrated Publishing - Your source for military specifications and...](https://www.tpub.com)** He wasn’t under arrest or indictment and he was free to leave the state. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/267 "2009-01-15T00:35:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It has not, it has provided a reason why the cops might have been extra nervous. We really have no idea of what Clark was doing while the PD was holding him down. Just out of curiosity, why do you insist on calling him Clark now? > [@DrDeth](#): > > He wasn’t under arrest or indictment and he was free to leave the state. How many civilians who shoot someone are allowed the luxury of having 13 days without being under arrest and free to leave the state? It’s the combination of deliberately avoiding questioning and then leaving the state that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/268 "2009-01-15T01:34:14Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > He’s not explaining something to someone. He’s been arrested for murder. > > Ed He SHOULD have been explaining something to someone on day one. Everybody involved should have been interviewed separately so there was no chance to cooberate a story. The person responsible for making this happen owes the public an explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/269 "2009-01-15T03:36:01Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Just out of curiosity, why do you insist on calling him Clark now? > > How many civilians who shoot someone are allowed the luxury of having 13 days without being under arrest and free to leave the state? … Well, if you limit your pool to Texas property owners shooting someone on their property, pretty much all of them. Same with private security guards in Iraq. That’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/270 "2009-01-15T03:59:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I would certainly call Mesehrle a dick. > > 🙂 It would seem you are right ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/271 "2009-01-15T04:01:07Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Thinking about the family that has had a loved oned killed is not the same thing as wishing that the family of the killer is destroyed. Good. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/272 "2009-01-15T04:57:43Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Just out of curiosity, why do you insist on calling him Clark now? > > How many civilians who shoot someone are allowed the luxury of having 13 days without being under arrest and free to leave the state? It’s the combination of deliberately avoiding questioning and then leaving the state that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. Typo. Anyone who isn’t under arrest or indictment. An indictment can take months or even more. Oddly, the DA doesn’t have the same issue. No one else is worried about this. Mesehrle was not a flight risk. Nor does anyone _have_ to be questioned about a crime. There’s this thing called the 5th Ad? And anyone in this situation who says word one except with his attorney there is an idiot. You are making a big deal over nothing. There was no need to rush. There was no special treatment. They knew where he was, he wasn’t hiding from _the police_. Of course he left town, there were violent mobs and riots. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/273 "2009-01-15T05:15:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Typo. > > Anyone who isn’t under arrest or indictment. An indictment can take months or even more. > > Oddly, the DA doesn’t have the same issue. No one else is worried about this. Mesehrle was not a flight risk. Nor does anyone _have_ to be questioned about a crime. There’s this thing called the 5th Ad? And anyone in this situation who says word one except with his attorney there is an idiot. > > You are making a big deal over nothing. There was no need to rush. There was no special treatment. They knew where he was, he wasn’t hiding from _the police_. Of course he left town, there were violent mobs and riots. I disagree. He should have been questioned immediately. Quiting his job doesn’t absolve the police from investigating a fatal shooting. If I shoot someone on my property I’m going to be questioned at length about what happened. If I don’t cooperate then it’s a trip downtown with a lawyer and bail money. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/274 "2009-01-15T05:26:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I disagree. He should have been questioned immediately. Quiting his job doesn’t absolve the police from investigating a fatal shooting. If I shoot someone on my property I’m going to be questioned at length about what happened. If I don’t cooperate then it’s a trip downtown with a lawyer and bail money. You still haven’t established that the police stopped investigating once he quit his job. On the contrary, it appears they did not. Quitting his job, however, most certainly put a kibbosh on any administrative actions of his employer. Once again, the internal BART investigation was administrative. Can you understand that? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/275 "2009-01-15T05:37:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I disagree. He should have been questioned immediately. Quiting his job doesn’t absolve the police from investigating a fatal shooting. If I shoot someone on my property I’m going to be questioned at length about what happened. If I don’t cooperate then it’s a trip downtown with a lawyer and bail money. What part of the USfuckingA don’t you understand? You do not have to answer any questions on a matter like this without consulting an attorney, and you **should** _never_ answer any questions on a matter like this without a lawyer. And, they can not generally take you from your home without an arrest warrant. IANAL, there are some specific exceptions that Bricker will fill us in on. But I’ll bet a nickle all the SDMB lawyers will agree about being questioned without an attorney. The ACLU sez the same. If they ask you to take a trip downtown, you \*may \*politely decline - unless they have that warrant. Which they did not in this case, until just yesterday. Nor did they stop investigating the matter, they have been investigating the hell out of it. This is the USfuckingA and you never have to answer any questions from the police when you are a suspect in a crime. (Police Officers do have to or they can get fired, which is why Meserhle resigned, which was certainly by the advice of his attorney). ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/276 "2009-01-15T06:01:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He SHOULD have been explaining something to someone on day one. Everybody involved should have been interviewed separately so there was no chance to cooberate a story. The person responsible for making this happen owes the public an explanation. Someone was explaining matters to the police satisfactorily, because they were able to obtain an arrest warrant and arrest Mehserle on murder charges. ETA: As Dr. Deth just said, the police HAVE been investigating this – that’s why he’s under arrest. Ed ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/277 "2009-01-15T06:17:24Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > You still haven’t established that the police stopped investigating once he quit his job. On the contrary, it appears they did not. Quitting his job, however, most certainly put a kibbosh on any administrative actions of his employer. Once again, the internal BART investigation was administrative. Can you understand that? I based it on the news accounts which may or may not be correct. Quiting his job may affect internal reviews but it doesn’t change the natural course of a homicide investigation. As I said before, If I didn’t cooperate with a homicide investigation I would expect bail at the very least and possibly jail. If the news outlets are wrong and I’ve missed something then that’s a different story. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/278 "2009-01-15T06:29:49Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Someone was explaining matters to the police satisfactorily, because they were able to obtain an arrest warrant and arrest Mehserle on murder charges. > > ETA: As Dr. Deth just said, the police HAVE been investigating this – that’s why he’s under arrest. > > Ed Which should have been established the day it happened. If he doesn’t want to discuss it that’s fine but after reviewing his fellow officer’s reports we’re left with a homicide charge that took 13 days. It’s not unreasonable to deem a homicidal cop a possible flight risk and keep tabs on him starting with a bail bond. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/279 "2009-01-15T06:32:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I based it on the news accounts which may or may not be correct. Quiting his job may affect internal reviews but it doesn’t change the natural course of a homicide investigation. > > As I said before, If I didn’t cooperate with a homicide investigation I would expect bail at the very least and possibly jail. If the news outlets are wrong and I’ve missed something then that’s a different story. I’m relatively sure we’re reading the same news reports (different outlets maybe), but it’s all getting hashed out in great detail here. Still, I haven’t read much to the effect that he wasn’t cooperating with the homicide investigation, just that he wasn’t cooperating with BART’s internal investigation. As far as the DA’s office goes, could it be that they’ve been in contact with his attorney who has expressed to them that there would be no interview, which is well in his rights to decline? You might expect to be immediately jailed as your case would not be treated at all like a high profile case such as this. When you’ve got the potential for civil unrest and a LOT of second guessing in the media, you dot your i’s and cross your t’s. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/280 "2009-01-15T06:51:31Z")
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