# Shot while cuffed and prone - justification? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234 "2009-01-07T16:53:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/301 "2009-01-16T20:14:23Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > You have a video record of what happened plus any number of citizens willing to provide their first hand account to corroborate the video, why does it take 13 days to file charges? > Plenty people would raise an eyebrow to the notion that it takes 13 days to decide to charge and arrest someone for shooting another person especially when they know exactly who that person is and where they are. This event I think is out of the norm in that respect I don’t understand why you don’t get that. You have a viceo, sure. In fact you have a dozen videos. And you have eyewitness testimory. But if you don’t review all that before bring charges, you’re not doing your job. You have to get statements, review the videos, and get a history. So, after seeing that video once- is it an accidental shooting? A premediated murder? Did the cop ever arrest the victim before? Did the cop and the victim have any personal history? Has the police officer any history of violence? How about the victim, he has a record, was it for violent crimes? Can you see any of that on the video?:dubious: You need to know the facts before you rush to file charges, otherwise the judge will throw it out, and/or you’ll lose your job. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/302 "2009-01-16T20:40:13Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > You have a video record of what happened plus any number of citizens willing to provide their first hand account to corroborate the video, why does it take 13 days to file charges? Because the video is only one piece of evidence. The gun is another piece of evidence and (I’m supposing) would need to be completely analyzed to rule out faulty works which could cause accidental discharge. The eyewitness evidence is another piece of evidence outside of the video. Lots of cops there to interview to determine whether a charge of murder with intent or negligent homicide is more appropriate to the evidence presented. I’ve never worked in a DA’s office, but with so much attention on this case, no doubt had their hands full and were actively looking at all angles. I can’t tell you why precisely it took 13 days; I can only speculate. You can’t tell me either because you also don’t have unfettered access to the Alameda County DA’s investigation; you can only speculate. Neither of us know who’s right. Maybe we’re both wrong. But at least I can see possibilities outside of “the cops hate black people and they are protecting their own.” (I’m not saying \*you \*are saying that, but many people are.) > [@](#): > > There’s no need for personal attacks. I apologize for it coming across that way. I meant ‘you’ in the collective sense and petulant in terms of the protests over alleged police favoritism. It seems like people are stomping their feet and demanding an arrest based on emotional reasons and feeling held down by The Man rather than calmly expecting a full and complete investigation and looking to the powers that be to seek out and administer justice with due diligence. Still, I apologize for my misstatement. > [@](#): > > To my knowledge there wasn’t video in the Duke case do you have a link? Not the point. The point is the North Carolina AG specifically noted that a rush to accuse and bravado on the part of the DA resulted in the legal mess that was the Duke lacrosse incident. I’m just saying that can serve as a lesson for this DA for a much more scrupulous approach to the investigation and analysis of all available evidence. > [@](#): > > So, anyone that questions and is skeptical is taking things personally? No, you appealed to my sense of emotion in asking me how I would feel if it were my family member. I’m saying that the emotional plea is not useful in logically discussing the merits of the DA’s investigation. > [@](#): > > Plenty people would raise an eyebrow to the notion that it takes 13 days to decide to charge and arrest someone for shooting another person especially when they know exactly who that person is and where they are. This event I think is out of the norm in that respect I don’t understand why you don’t get that. Plenty of people might, but plenty of people aren’t district attorneys. Plenty of people see this video as all the evidence they need to convict Mehserle of cold-blooded murder. I am not plenty of people apparently. Because I hold the apparently minority belief that the DA is on the up-and-up with regard to this case until proven otherwise, doesn’t mean I’m wrong. I understand having video of this incident is outside of the norm. I’d like to believe that corrupt DAs, who don’t know squat about evidence gathering, are as well. I could be wrong, but my red flags aren’t going off because it took as long for charges to come down as the ACDA actually said it would take. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/303 "2009-01-16T20:41:17Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I don’t disagree about any point of your post, but I was referring to an arrest, not an interrogation. I wouldn’t necessarily expect a cop on the scene to start taking statements, but I would expect one to understand that there is – probable cause, is that the right term? – to make an arrest. For what reason? No question: there was probable cause to make an arrest right there. Why are you saying it was a desirable thing to do? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/304 "2009-01-16T21:08:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For what reason? > > No question: there was probable cause to make an arrest right there. > > Why are you saying it was a desirable thing to do? So the public would not be subject to witnessing a serious crime (apparently) committed by a cop right in front of their eyes, and the eyes of several other cops, and walking away from it without any visible consequences. You can call it bad PR, I suppose. But IMO it goes beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/305 "2009-01-17T07:35:31Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > So the public would not be subject to witnessing a serious crime (apparently) committed by a cop right in front of their eyes, and the eyes of several other cops, and walking away from it without any visible consequences. > > You can call it bad PR, I suppose. But IMO it goes beyond that. Can it be that I’ve answered a question of Bricker’s satisfactorily? Am I the first? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/306 "2009-01-31T06:09:24Z")
In case people are interested in the latest developments: Bail was set at $3 million today for Mehserle, and his lawyer is arguing that he intended to pull his Taser, but mistakenly pulled his gun instead. [Link](http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_11592317?source=most_emailed) ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/307 "2009-01-31T09:45:13Z")
Also, don’t forget this little extra from the epitome of professionalism that is the BART squad, [Excessive force? No! Of course not! Never!](http://www.ktvu.com/news/18554361/detail.html#-) But hey, come on, can’t you understand the stress the officers were under? People were _yelling_ at them!!! They were really, really loud!!! I mean, when things are noisy who can blame you if you occasionally punch and/or shoot a black person in the back? It was just _one_ of them, it’s not like there’s a shortage… jeez… Plus, you know, they may or may not have been fighting one another, if BART hadn’t intervened, something bad may have happened… ---
**Author:** ![Roulette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8dc957/32.png) [@Roulette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roulette)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/308 "2009-01-31T11:58:02Z")
Does anyone else think this statement smells bad? > [@](#): > > According to a statement from Officer Tony Pirone, Mehserle told Grant to stop resisting and put his hands behind his back. Then, according to Pirone’s statement, Mehserle said: “I’m going to taze him, I’m going to taze him. I can’t get his arms. He won’t give me his arms. His hands are going for his waistband.” Maybe it’s just me, but Mehserle was only on the guys back for 20 seconds or so. Not much time to make an effort, and than say all of that. Plus, it just seems a bit too… perfect? Again, probably my natural cynicism at work. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/309 "2009-01-31T12:24:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You need to know the facts before you rush to file charges, otherwise the judge will throw it out, and/or you’ll lose your job. Yes, but 99.9% of people would be locked up in a cell waiting for those enquiries to be carried out. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/310 "2009-01-31T12:47:57Z")
> [@Roulette](#): > > Does anyone else think this statement smells bad? > > Maybe it’s just me, but Mehserle was only on the guys back for 20 seconds or so. Not much time to make an effort, and than say all of that. Plus, it just seems a bit too… perfect? > > Again, probably my natural cynicism at work. Nevermind the timeframe, do you know \*anyone \*who’d say stuff like that ? “I’m putting money in the machine. The coffee doesn’t come. I pushed the button but the coffee doesn’t come. I’m thinking that machine is busted right now. I’m going to hit the machine.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/311 "2009-01-31T19:47:08Z")
I’m an excellent driver. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/312 "2009-01-31T20:08:16Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Nevermind the timeframe, do you know \*anyone \*who’d say stuff like that ? > > “I’m putting money in the machine. The coffee doesn’t come. I pushed the button but the coffee doesn’t come. I’m thinking that machine is busted right now. I’m going to hit the machine.” :dubious: 😃 Well played, sir. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/313 "2009-01-31T20:17:13Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > Also, don’t forget this little extra from the epitome of professionalism that is the BART squad, [Excessive force? No! Of course not! Never!](http://www.ktvu.com/news/18554361/detail.html#-) Wow. I hadn’t seen that punch. You can see the video of it [here](http://www.ktvu.com/video/18554358/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/314 "2010-11-06T17:01:23Z")
Zombie thread revived for sentencing info. The cop who did the shooting was eventually convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Yesterday, [according to AP](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101106/ap_on_re_us/us_train_station_shooting), he was sentenced to the minimum term of two years in prison. And yes, there was a riot afterward. ---
**Author:** ![ripopgome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a698b9/32.png) [@ripopgome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ripopgome)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/315 "2010-11-06T19:11:22Z")
…and only needs to serve about 1yr, due to credit for time served. But the riot was pretty tame by Oakland standards. [http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-11-05-mehserle-sentencing-oscar-grant-oakland\_N.htm?csp=34news](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-11-05-mehserle-sentencing-oscar-grant-oakland_N.htm?csp=34news) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/316 "2010-11-06T19:30:54Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > No, they don’t. What makes you say that? 😕 > > And just how would you propose to keep order without police and courts? > > Valete, > Vox Imperatoris Howsabout you folks debate libertarian policing actions in another thread? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/317 "2010-11-06T21:02:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Howsabout you folks debate libertarian policing actions in another thread? You know you’re responding to a post that’s almost two years old, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/318 "2010-11-06T23:06:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You know you’re responding to a post that’s almost two years old, don’t you? And the poster hasn’t posted in over a year and a half. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/319 "2010-11-07T01:43:17Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > And the poster hasn’t posted in over a year and a half. I guess he told _him_ then! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=15)