# Shot while cuffed and prone - justification? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234 "2009-01-07T16:53:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/41 "2009-01-07T23:25:53Z")
The way the officers around the subject, restrained or not, reacted, it appears that this was accidental as opposed to murder. Whether it was negligent, is for the boards and possibly a jury to decide. I feel comfortable saying however that this was not a cold-blooded murder as much as a hyper, young officer that made a horrible and possibly negligent mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/42 "2009-01-07T23:31:42Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > I can’t speak for the kind of socialism **Olentzero** may prefer but in the one I see - no. A libertarian socialist society has no need for police and would not have them. **Police imply a hierarchy** and that is anathema to many forms of socialism. Anti-social behaviour can be dealt with in different ways No, they don’t. What makes you say that? 😕 And just how would you propose to keep order without police and courts? Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/43 "2009-01-07T23:33:22Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > Adding. Like the OP I see murder. I see no reason whatsoever for an armed man to be holding a weapon on someone who is not a threat to begin with. The people held in custody seemed in no way threatening to anyone at all. Just pretend it’s a socialistic society and he was dealing with it from a non-hierarchal position. Just like the “Old West”. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/44 "2009-01-07T23:44:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Just pretend it’s a socialistic society and he was dealing with it from a non-hierarchal position. Just like the “Old West”. Or, conversely, nothing like it at all. that old west mentality was driven by heirarchies, not the lack thereof ---
**Author:** ![Petek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/petek/32/1590_2.png) [@Petek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petek)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/45 "2009-01-07T23:52:16Z")
According to [this link](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/07/BA2N155BAH.DTL&tsp=1), the officer who was involved in the shooting has resigned to avoid being interviewed by police internal affairs investigators about the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/46 "2009-01-07T23:52:19Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > Or, conversely, nothing like it at all. that old west mentality was driven by heirarchies, not the lack thereof No it wasn’t. It was individual power absent any control. It was the exact opposite of a hierarchical society. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/47 "2009-01-08T00:00:05Z")
The second rule of gun safety\* is “Don’t point it if you don’t intend to shoot what you’re pointing it at.” The cop either broke this rule blatantly or he meant to shoot him. \*The first rule of gun safety is “Every gun is ALWAYS loaded.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/48 "2009-01-08T00:05:00Z")
> [@Petek](#): > > According to [this link](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/07/BA2N155BAH.DTL&tsp=1), the officer who was involved in the shooting has resigned to avoid being interviewed by police internal affairs investigators about the incident. Maybe someone in the legal community can advise but I don’t understand how a shooting doesn’t immediately involve an investigation which would START with an interview. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/49 "2009-01-08T00:09:36Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > The second rule of gun safety\* is “Don’t point it if you don’t intend to shoot what you’re pointing it at.” > > The cop either broke this rule blatantly or he meant to shoot him. > > \*The first rule of gun safety is “Every gun is ALWAYS loaded.” I don’t think that applies to police. There are situations where guns are drawn and aimed but without a finger on the trigger. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/50 "2009-01-08T00:17:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t think that applies to police. There are situations where guns are drawn and aimed but without a finger on the trigger. That doesn’t mean you HAVE to shoot the person/object you’re aiming at. It just means that you have to be willing to do so. If the threat isn’t such that you feel justified in shooting, then don’t aim the thing. Don’t even take it out of the holster. If you shoot someone, then have an “Oh my god! I just accidentally shot him!” reaction, then you were not justified in having that gun out of its holster. Period. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/51 "2009-01-08T00:19:16Z")
Here’s a page that also has a couple more views: [http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/07/execution-style/](http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/07/execution-style/) The idiot bystanders who kept on approaching the police certainly didn’t help the situation. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/52 "2009-01-08T00:24:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No it wasn’t. It was individual power absent any control. It was the exact opposite of a hierarchical society. I think this belongs in another thread but I disagree. Power over any other is a hierarchy - whether it be by force of law or by force of weaponry (and I’m not convinced there is much difference) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/53 "2009-01-08T00:29:17Z")
> [@riker1384](#): > > Here’s a page that also has a couple more views: > > [http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/07/execution-style/](http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/07/execution-style/) > > The idiot bystanders who kept on approaching the police certainly didn’t help the situation. I agree and was going to mention this under the heading of “not helpful”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/54 "2009-01-08T00:32:11Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > Adding. Like the OP I see murder. I see no reason whatsoever for an armed man to be holding a weapon on someone who is not a threat to begin with. The people held in custody seemed in no way threatening to anyone at all. Really? Murder? What evidence of intent is there? > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But were a police officer to happen upon the scene, he wouldn’t necessarily know which it was. Isn’t the point of argument here (from **Roulette’s** post, I mean) not whether a crime was comitted but whether grounds for arrest were met? That accidental discharge is not a crime in some situations doesn’t answer the question of why the officer wasn’t arrested, unless it was clear to the other officers at the scene that it most certainly had been an accidental discharge, and most certainly not a criminal act. Oh, I absolutely agree that there was sufficient probable cause to arrest the officer immediately, if the other officers had been so minded. There’s no _requirement_ that they arrest him, but there were grounds to if they wanted. > [@Magiver](#): > > Maybe someone in the legal community can advise but I don’t understand how a shooting doesn’t immediately involve an investigation which would START with an interview. Every person has the right to remain silent. Now, the cops can threaten to fire him if he doesn’t cooperate with investigators, and appparently he’s responded by resigning. But he’s first and foremost a citizen, and can’t be compelled to answer any questions. At this point, of course, the cops should arrest him. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/55 "2009-01-08T00:36:45Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > That doesn’t mean you HAVE to shoot the person/object you’re aiming at. It just means that you have to be willing to do so. If the threat isn’t such that you feel justified in shooting, then don’t aim the thing. Don’t even take it out of the holster. If you shoot someone, then have an “Oh my god! I just accidentally shot him!” reaction, then you were not justified in having that gun out of its holster. Period. That’s not correct. Consider approaching a man holding a gun in his hand. Presumably you agree that your hypothetical officer is justified in having his gun out? Now the officer yells at him to drop the weapon. The man does so. The officer immediately holsters his weapon? No… of course not. The man could still grab up the weapon and shoot. I’m wondering what authority you draw upon for your blanket statement “Period.” Which law enforcement agency has that guidance as part of its procedures? Which experts in the field recommend your approach? ---
**Author:** ![Apex\_Rogers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Apex\_Rogers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apex_Rogers)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/56 "2009-01-08T00:39:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Maybe someone in the legal community can advise but I don’t understand how a shooting doesn’t immediately involve an investigation which would START with an interview. Yeah, this doesn’t sit right with me. Why isn’t he facing a proper criminal investigation? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/57 "2009-01-08T00:42:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now, the cops can threaten to fire him if he doesn’t cooperate with investigators, and appparently he’s responded by resigning. But he’s first and foremost a citizen, and can’t be compelled to answer any questions. I should point out that in _Garrity v. New Jersey_, the Supreme Court said that requiring an officer to answer questions under penalty of dismissal is a violation of his Fifth Amendment rights, unless he’s told that his statements won’t be used againt him in a criminal proceeding. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/58 "2009-01-08T00:46:31Z")
> [@Apex\_Rogers](#): > > Yeah, this doesn’t sit right with me. Why isn’t he facing a proper criminal investigation? I know it’s not all that famous, but there’s a little saying that starts out, “You have the right to remain silent…” Ever hear it? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/59 "2009-01-08T00:57:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not correct. > > Consider approaching a man holding a gun in his hand. Presumably you agree that your hypothetical officer is justified in having his gun out? > > Now the officer yells at him to drop the weapon. The man does so. > > The officer immediately holsters his weapon? No… of course not. The man could still grab up the weapon and shoot. > > I’m wondering what authority you draw upon for your blanket statement “Period.” Which law enforcement agency has that guidance as part of its procedures? Which experts in the field recommend your approach? Okay, you have a point. I still don’t like it. Different standards for different groups make me uncomfortable and that’s what I was working off of. The _non-law-enforcement_ rules of gun safety include the “don’t pull on something you aren’t going to shoot, if necessary” number. ---
**Author:** ![Apex\_Rogers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Apex\_Rogers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apex_Rogers)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/60 "2009-01-08T01:07:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I know it’s not all that famous, but there’s a little saying that starts out, “You have the right to remain silent…” Ever hear it? Yes, but that’s not really the point. I haven’t seen any mention that the officer is facing a criminal investigation for his actions. So far I’ve only read about an internal investigation made by the police, which he clearly is within his rights to not participate in. But surely, if a civilian had accidentally discharged a weapon and killed someone there would be some sort of criminal investigation, no? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=4)