# Shot while cuffed and prone - justification? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234 "2009-01-07T16:53:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/81 "2009-01-08T03:24:42Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You know, I’m more afraid of people like you than I am of actual criminals. So, in your United States, all it takes to get you shot in cold blood by LEOs is to have committed some crime in the past and to happen to be on a subway car in which an altercation (which multiple witnesses say you were not a part of) has occurred? > > I’ll take my chances with druggies, thanks. They’re not my United States. The world doesn’t begin and end at your borders, mate. Who are the multiple ‘witnesses’ who said Grant wasn’t fighting? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/82 "2009-01-08T03:24:45Z")
Nothing will happen to this guy. Nothing ever does. They’ll do what they always do – identify some twitch or or shadow which they can claim caused the shooter to think his life was in danger. We will hear frequent use of the line that “officers have to make split second decisions.” That’s their favorite thing to say. It excuses everything. “Accidental discharge” is a good one, though. As if “I thought he had a gun” wasn’t already magic enough, now they can take out their piece, carefully line up a shot, smoke an unarmed, retsrained victim in the back and call it an “accidental discharge.” Anyone who dares to question that will be shouted down and demands will be made to prove it was NOT an accident. It’s not that I think cops are bad. The vast majority are decent, professional and ethical. It does seem almost impossible to punish the ones who ARE bad, though. Departments, cities, politicians and the public always close ranks around them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/83 "2009-01-08T03:32:37Z")
> [@Krav\_Manga](#): > > I don’t know if Grant’s shooting was justified or not, but I do know that if he wasn’t an ex-con who was picking fights on the subway, he wouldn’t have got himself into the predicament that he did. So that justifies what happened to him? “He asked for it?” I don’t give a shit what happened. It wasn’t the officer’s call to make. Why bother having laws in this country if our own criminal justice system can’t bother to follow them? That makes the cops just as bad as he was. We’re supposed to be the good guys. _The guy was cuffed and kneeling_. He was already in custody. He was fighting on the subway. He wasn’t a danger in that moment. Yet, to you, that makes it completely okay to kill him? That’s not what the United States is supposed to stand for. We have laws for a REASON. Somehow, to you, picking fights is worse than shooting someone in the back while that someone is handcuffed? ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/84 "2009-01-08T03:33:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Departments, cities, politicians and the public always close ranks around them. When will people learn. Democracy doesn’t work! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/85 "2009-01-08T03:36:52Z")
> [@Krav\_Manga](#): > > When will people learn. Democracy doesn’t work! It’s a Republic, dammit, not a Democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/86 "2009-01-08T03:38:09Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So that justifies what happened to him? “He asked for it?” Didn’t say that, but if (as I suspect) the guy had a violent past, he may have been going for a weapon. > [@](#): > > I don’t give a shit what happened. Clearly. > [@](#): > > It wasn’t the officer’s call to make. Why bother having laws in this country if our own criminal justice system can’t bother to follow them? That makes the cops just as bad as he was. We’re supposed to be the good guys. If he was defending himself and his colleagues it _was_ the officer’s call to make. > [@](#): > > _The guy was cuffed and kneeling_. He was already in custody. He was fighting on the subway. He wasn’t a danger in that moment. Yet, to you, that makes it completely okay to kill him? Was he cuffed? > [@](#): > > That’s not what the United States is supposed to stand for. We have laws for a REASON. > > Somehow, to you, picking fights is worse than shooting someone in the back while that someone is handcuffed? Not at all. Its just that whenever one of these claims of brutality comes up, the liberal knee-jerk reaction is that it must have been the fault of the police, not the repeat offender. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/87 "2009-01-08T03:41:30Z")
Fascinating. It seems to me like it’s the right wingers who always jerk their knees and scream that the victim must have had it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/88 "2009-01-08T03:48:23Z")
> [@Krav\_Manga](#): > > Didn’t say that, but if (as I suspect) the guy had a violent past, he may have been going for a weapon. With his hands cuffed? Um… :dubious: > [@](#): > > Its just that whenever one of these claims of brutality comes up, the liberal knee-jerk reaction is that it must have been the fault of the police, not the repeat offender. And yes, it’s always about politics. It has nothing to do with the ethics of the situation. It’s just about those no-good liberals. Gah. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/89 "2009-01-08T03:50:00Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Maybe you can start another thread where you can bitch about that and make provocative comments that cause others to post? This isn’t the place for it. [Right here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10664138#post10664138) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/90 "2009-01-08T03:50:23Z")
> [@Krav\_Manga](#): > > Its just that whenever one of these claims of brutality comes up, the liberal knee-jerk reaction is that it must have been the fault of the police, not the repeat offender. As I understand it, we don’t know that the guy was a repeat offender. That policeman needs to have a job flipping burgers, not carrying a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/91 "2009-01-08T03:54:34Z")
There is no such thing as an accidental discharge. ---
**Author:** ![dedmonwakin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@dedmonwakin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dedmonwakin)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/92 "2009-01-08T03:56:48Z")
> [@Krav\_Manga](#): > > Didn’t say that, but if (as I suspect) the guy had a violent past, he may have been going for a weapon. > > Clearly. > > If he was defending himself and his colleagues it _was_ the officer’s call to make. > > Was he cuffed? > > Not at all. > > Its just that whenever one of these claims of brutality comes up, the liberal knee-jerk reaction is that it must have been the fault of the police, not the repeat offender. Clearly, you did not watch the video. Go back to the OP and you’ll see a link. There is even another link at the top of this second page by another poster that provides the same clip, in addition to two others. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/93 "2009-01-08T03:59:17Z")
> [@Krav\_Manga](#): > > Didn’t say that, but if (as I suspect) the guy had a violent past… And you base this suspicion on… ? [QUOTE=carnivorous plant] It’s a Republic, dammit, not a Democracy. [/QUOTE] It’s both. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/94 "2009-01-08T03:59:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Fascinating. It seems to me like it’s the right wingers who always jerk their knees and scream that the victim must have had it coming. One guy. On the _internet_. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/95 "2009-01-08T04:00:56Z")
Oscar Grant is laying on his stomach when shot by former officer Johannes Mehserle, the other individual who is handcuffed is kneeling. Once the officers hold the victim down, former officer Mesherle gets up, pulls his weapon out, holds it with both hands and fires. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de9T1jdcnTg) ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/96 "2009-01-08T04:03:19Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > With his hands cuffed? Um… :dubious: You keep saying that. Where is your evidence that his hands were cuffed? From a CNN report: ([Spokesman: Officer in subway shooting has resigned - CNN.com](http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/07/BART.shooting/)) > [@](#): > > Some of the young men were handcuffed, but not 22-year-old Oscar Grant. The video from the anonymous passenger shows Grant seated on the floor with his back against the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/97 "2009-01-08T04:05:43Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > One guy. On the _internet_. 😕 In this thread, yeah, but in more general terms you can always count on the radio screamers, Freepers, etc. to defend the cops to their last breath. Finding ways to villify the victim and paint him as a desperate psychopath is always SOP. I will admit that there ocasional overreactions in the other direction as well, though. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/98 "2009-01-08T04:06:54Z")
This does not suprise me. At one time the police were under the law. Today the police are above the law. I live in San Jose Calif. We have an Independent Police Auditors. Their job was to over see the police department. The problem, they did their job. the chief of police got the city council to limit their authority. The IPA’s head still did her job as best she could. They fired her for doing her job, no one denies that. When the mayor and council members were accused of firing her for doing her job they would not deny it. I use to think that when stories came out like the BART story that something was being left out. Then I had an experience with the SJPD. I have come to the conclusion that police are paid professional liers. And the problem with liers is that they forget how to tell the truth when it would be better. I filed a complaint with IA, what a joke. On TV programs they are regarded as the rat squad when infact they are the white wash squad, sweep it under the rug. I know those with out experience are going to disagree with me. I would have 15 months ago. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/99 "2009-01-08T04:07:33Z")
> [@Krav\_Manga](#): > > You keep saying that. Where is your evidence that his hands were cuffed? > > From a CNN report: ([Spokesman: Officer in subway shooting has resigned - CNN.com](http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/07/BART.shooting/)) Doesn’t matter, he was still fully restrained. ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/100 "2009-01-08T04:10:39Z")
[quote] Doesn’t matter, he was still fully restrained./quote] The title of this thread is “Shot while cuffed and prone - justification”. Perhaps that should be corrected. Other posters to this thread have repeatedly referred to Grant as being handcuffed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=6)