# Shot while cuffed and prone - justification? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234 "2009-01-07T16:53:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/161 "2009-01-08T23:05:34Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > He doesn’t need to. He never claimed that Oscar Grant did any of those things and those videos are inconclusive anyway. He simply answered the question as to what specific acts could justify an officer tasering a suspect. > > It’s all speculation anyway as to whether the taser explanation is a viable one. The taser explanation isn’t viable IMO, the officer knew what he was reaching for and you can see that even though the video isn’t HDTV quality and police arrest and convict people on video evidence of the same quality or lack of it. The had Oscar Grant down which allowed the officer to stand up pull his weapon and fires. Oscar Grant is now dead, the officer shot and killed him. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/162 "2009-01-08T23:08:31Z")
> [@fifty-six](#): > > Could it have ricocheted off the ground and into the other officers heart or head? What would we be talking about in that scenario? This could have well happened causing confusion and shooting of more individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/163 "2009-01-08T23:11:52Z")
I agree to a point. The taser explanation is weak, but I’m not too proud to admit that I don’t have all the information. Because beyond seeing a cop shoot a victim while prone, I can’t say what was being said, I can’t see well to what extent the victim is restrained, I don’t know whether the officer was even equipped with a Taser, how much training he had and whether he had it equipped properly. So many unanswered questions. Isn’t that the point? ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/164 "2009-01-08T23:27:02Z")
Considering tasers look and feel totally different from a firearm, I don’t possibly see that as being a viable defense… ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/165 "2009-01-08T23:37:01Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > He never claimed that Oscar Grant did any of those things He did, however, say > [@](#): > > _perhaps [Grant’s] actions did call for a taser_ which isn’t a direct claim but would bolster the argument Mehserle is apparently using to justify his actions, so I’m asking **DrDeth** to identify any actions that would have called the use of a taser. We’ve got three videos from three different angles on this thread, so there ought to be _something_ clearly visible, no? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/166 "2009-01-08T23:45:31Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > So many unanswered questions. Isn’t that the point? Not all questions in the matter are of equal weight. Whether he had a Taser or not is of greater weight than whether he was properly trained or had it properly equipped; a ‘no’ answer to the first renders the other two irrelevant, while a ‘yes’ would give the second question some importance (how well trained _was_ he if he couldn’t tell the difference?) but the third is still irrelevant. The biggest question is this: What actions on Grant’s part would have justified the use of a Taser? The videos clearly show him **not** being aggressive or violent before he is thrown on the ground and restrained, nor did it appear at any time that he had any chance at mobility once he had Mehserle and the other cop on top of him. Barring any further details of what happened (the witness sitting next to Grant could be of great help if this goes to trial) I just don’t see the justification for _any_ use of a weapon here. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/167 "2009-01-09T00:40:01Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > **Kobal2** , though you mistaken wrt to taser usage, further discussion along these lines would only continue the hijacking of this thread. The use of tasers has been debated previously (I’d link, but can’t search for another 5 minutes). > > Second-guessing the judgment of the participants involved also isn’t reliable, or even an appropriate, means of coming to a definitive answer as to what happened. No I am not. There is a well defined continuum re. use of force. Tasers are usually high on the list. It varies from P.D. to P.D., but none state that it’s proper to apply non-lethal weapons before empty hand techniques (either soft or hard), unless the subject is armed. At the most basic level, the escalation goes : unarmed suspect = unarmed cop, armed suspect (knife, club etc..) = non-lethal cop, armed suspect (gun) = lethal force. From the makers of tasers themselves : > [@](#): > > TASER International, Inc. provides advanced non-lethal devices for use in the law enforcement, military, private security and personal defense markets. TASER devices use proprietary technology to safely incapacitate **dangerous, combative or high-risk subjects** who pose a risk to law enforcement officers, innocent citizens or themselves. Emphasis mine. Does a prone man being controlled by two police officers duly trained to do so effectively pose a risk to anything ? Whether the LEO meant to pull a taser or a gun is irrelevant, as pulling his taser (or any weapon for that matter) skips a lot of steps in the proper use of force list. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/168 "2009-01-09T01:00:09Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > In fact, a little digging on YouTube got me this [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caG7hG5utGM&feature=related) from a different angle and closer, which includes a number of fairly clear shots of a number of utility belts, including (I believe) Mehserle’s. I don’t know what a Taser looks like, but perhaps some of our more experienced and eagle-eyed Dopers would care to take a look and see if they can make sense of it? That video clearly shows a situation made much worse by the crowd which includes what appears to be one of them attacking a police officer. You can hear someone in the crowd say “use a right hook”. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/169 "2009-01-09T02:48:21Z")
Maybe this cop thought he had his taser in his hand, but if he did the only logical explanation is that he wanted to use the taser to punish rather than incapacitate. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/170 "2009-01-09T03:04:29Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Maybe this cop thought he had his taser in his hand, but if he did the only logical explanation is that he wanted to use the taser to punish rather than incapacitate. When you have a crowd starting to involve themselves in the situation then it becomes a means to incapacitate the suspect so they can deal with the situation. This all happened in real time and was a very volatile situation. The police didn’t have the luxury of putting the crowd on hold while they dealt with it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/171 "2009-01-09T03:37:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When you have a crowd starting to involve themselves in the situation then it becomes a means to incapacitate the suspect so they can deal with the situation. Or they didn’t want to wrestle the guy for another half an hour. I can understand using the taser prematurely. I don’t agree with it, but I can understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/172 "2009-01-09T03:42:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When you have a crowd starting to involve themselves in the situation then it becomes a means to incapacitate the suspect so they can deal with the situation. This all happened in real time and was a very volatile situation. The police didn’t have the luxury of putting the crowd on hold while they dealt with it. There were 3 other officers staring down the crowd, and none of the videos show an onlooker getting even close to the action, nevermind assaulting an officer. Besides, do you really belive tasing the guy would do anything to defuse the volatile situation ? :dubious: More likely to incense them into action IMO. [QUOTE=carnivorousplant] Or they didn’t want to wrestle the guy for another half an hour. I can understand using the taser prematurely. I don’t agree with it, but I can understand it. [/QUOTE] Precisely. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/173 "2009-01-09T04:08:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Or they didn’t want to wrestle the guy for another half an hour. I can understand using the taser prematurely. I don’t agree with it, but I can understand it. If it was simply matter of dealing with a couple of drunks in a fist fight then this would be so over the top as to preclude any debate. After I saw the second video with the crowd getting involved I have a better understanding for the desire to shut it down before it got out of control. I also have a bit of sympathy for the officer. Instead of celebrating the birth of his new son he has to live with killing a person for no good reason and the family of the deceased have to deal with a senseless loss. I don’t know why the train was filled with a bunch of adult-aged children but their behavior was a driving force in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/174 "2009-01-09T04:28:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When you have a crowd starting to involve themselves in the situation then it becomes a means to incapacitate the suspect so they can deal with the situation. I cannot for the life of me see how this is at all logical. Making an example of Grant to keep the crowd quiet? It’s not unequivocally clear to me that Grant was an aggressive threat at all before he was restrained, so why should he have force used against him if the cops are unnerved by a threat coming from another direction entirely? This smacks too much of making a convenient example of someone who’s already at your mercy. “Quiet down or we taze this guy!” ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/175 "2009-01-09T04:29:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t know why the train was filled with a bunch of adult-aged children but their behavior was a driving force in this situation. 2 AM New Year’s Day after a fireworks show downtown. Going home after celebrating. … Wait, are you trying to imply that the _crowd_ was responsible for Grant’s death?! ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/176 "2009-01-09T04:42:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When you have a crowd starting to involve themselves in the situation then it becomes a means to incapacitate the suspect so they can deal with the situation. This all happened in real time and was a very volatile situation. The police didn’t have the luxury of putting the crowd on hold while they dealt with it. Shooting someone in the back at point blank range will sure enough shock the crowd long enough for the train to close it doors and pull off. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/177 "2009-01-09T04:45:42Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I agree to a point. The taser explanation is weak, but I’m not too proud to admit that I don’t have all the information. Because beyond seeing a cop shoot a victim while prone, I can’t say what was being said, I can’t see well to what extent the victim is restrained, I don’t know whether the officer was even equipped with a Taser, how much training he had and whether he had it equipped properly. So many unanswered questions. Isn’t that the point? So something that someone said is the deciding factor for shooting that person in the back? Just words? It doesn’t matter if he’s equiped with a taser or not, that’s just a red herring, he drew a gun aimed it and fired it. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/178 "2009-01-09T04:49:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t think that applies to police. There are situations where guns are drawn and aimed but without a finger on the trigger. Uh, no. Police universally are told, never pull a gun without intending to use it. NEVER use a gun to “scare” someone. Pull the gun ONLY to defend your own life or someone else’s. NEVER pull the gun unless you intend to kill someone with it. That said, I have no idea, from watching the video numerous times, what the hell happened. There was movement, it looked like some cops were trying to move a suspect, it was impossible to tell bad guys from good guys because nobody wears real uniforms any more, everybody wears black, and there is no way to separate one group from another. All I can see is what appears to be a mild scuffle, then I heard a “pop” and some people jumped back, then started to drag the guy on the ground away. I didn’t see a gun, couldn’t tell where the “pop” came from, nothing. The video shows us nothing. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/179 "2009-01-09T05:03:55Z")
> [@Sunrazor](#): > > Uh, no. Police universally are told, never pull a gun without intending to use it. No. They’re instructed not to pull a gun unless they are WILLING to use it. In other words, they don’t have to fire, but they have to be ready to do so. This is exactly why you routinely see police officers keep their guns trained on a perp without actually firing. They’re ready to do so, but that doesn’t mean that they will. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234/180 "2009-01-09T06:17:32Z")
> [@Sunrazor](#): > > Uh, no. Police universally are told, never pull a gun without intending to use it. NEVER use a gun to “scare” someone. Pull the gun ONLY to defend your own life or someone else’s. NEVER pull the gun unless you intend to kill someone with it. that is just flat wrong. I’ve personally seen police draw weapons in situations that were preemptive. You can add a straw man about “scaring” someone for something to knock down but it is not universal that guns are drawn for defense. The idea that guns are only drawn with the intent to kill is pure fiction. There would be dead bodies stacked up like chord wood if that was the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-while-cuffed-and-prone-justification/480234.md?page=10)