# Should a 13 year old be climbing Everest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2010, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192 "2010-04-15T10:49:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/161 "2010-04-17T23:29:29Z")
Isn’t a big strtech of the ascent up Everest via fixed ropes? Is it really a climb (in the definition of mountaineers)? Maybe the solution is to set up a tramway/ski lift, to get the egomaniacs to the top. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/162 "2010-04-17T23:35:10Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I’ve been in the Himalayas and the Whites in winter, I know what they are like. There’s no direct comparison. > > But we’re talking about where to draw lines. I think the relevant line here has less to do with the strictest assessment of relative risk, and more to do with the reasons for climbing Everest specifically. As noted earlier in the thread, > [@salinqmind](#): > > EGO. EGO. EGO. > > Everest has ‘name recognition’. To climb Everest is to prove to the world that YOU are superior, special, awesome. Climbing other, more dangerous mountains doesn’t count, YOU have to climb Everest. Huzzah, aren’t YOU a superior being. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/163 "2010-04-18T02:06:27Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Forget it, I give up. I’m not trying to equate the two. I’ve been in the Himalayas and the Whites in winter, I know what they are like. There’s no direct comparison. > > But we’re talking about where to draw lines. If you assume climbing Everest is child abuse then somewhere along the way you’ll find people who say climbing Washington in winter is child abuse. People here in New England are saying this now. It was meant to illustrate that reasonable people can disagree on what is acceptable and what is not. Once you start drawing lines it’s logical to examine the issue in light of other, less extreme scenarios. That’s the only point of bringing up the Whites. You go hiking in the mountains of New England with a child during 140 mph winds and -40 degree temperature then it is child endangerment. If you let your child fly an airplane into a thunderstorm, it’s child endangerment. If you stand in the middle of an open field with a child while chasing a tornado it’s child endangerment. It’s not just the act, it’s the conditions and probability of injury that makes it relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/164 "2010-04-18T02:09:39Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Isn’t a big stretch of the ascent up Everest via fixed ropes? Is it really a climb (in the definition of mountaineers)? > Maybe the solution is to set up a tramway/ski lift, to get the egomaniacs to the top. 🆒 That made me laugh Ralph! Sheese, I’m sorry I ever mentioned taking my son hiking up Mount Washington! We climbed it 4 times and he was 8 the first time. It was summer and warm and a nice day. Now our most dangerous hike was Mt Chocorua because we had 50 mile an hour winds once we got above the tree line. My son says he was like 7 for that hike. We had done it once before and had a pic-nick lunch on the summit. It was one of those beautiful summer days, warm and no wind. The second time it was a total nightmare. We got above the tree line and we had to hold hands. He wanted so bad to bag that peak but it was just too dangerous. We turned around and headed down with that awful feeling of close but no cigar… That was the time we got attacked by a barn owl on the way down. The thing about hiking is the weather can change at the drop of a hat. You have to be prepared for anything. I was impressed by this young mans previous climbs. I hope he makes it since it looks like he is going to climb it. My son was just saying that Mount Washington is not that hard for a child. It was the trail we did that was hard. Huntington’s Ravine was the toughest way up. He said the fat people have a worse time then the kids do. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/165 "2010-04-18T05:06:37Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Isn’t a big strtech of the ascent up Everest via fixed ropes? Is it really a climb (in the definition of mountaineers)? The elevation makes any effort a huge problem. Fix ropes just means you are caught if you fall. People often die on the fixed ropes. The standard route isn’t an advanced technical route in mountaineering terms, but it’s still more than 99% of most climbers will ever do. It’s a real climb, just not the hardest technical climb out there. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/166 "2010-04-18T06:43:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I once build a cage around my house and Michael Faraday _still_ kept showing up unannounced. Lousy chemist mooch, always borrowing sugar and stuff. Did it keep Major League Baseball from spying on you? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/167 "2010-04-18T08:38:52Z")
Had I heard of this story while the family was still in the US, I would have reprted them to their state child protective service agency. That kid should have been removed from his parents’ custody while he was still in their jurisdiction. I’m not certain if intent to endanger the child is sufficient grounds. But I see in the OP linked article that a Dutch court took custody of a child to prevent her parents from allowing a similarly stupid stunt. So I would leave the legalities to the lawyers and drop a dime on the family. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Galileo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/168 "2010-04-18T21:28:43Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Had I heard of this story while the family was still in the US, I would have reprted them to their state child protective service agency. That kid should have been removed from his parents’ custody while he was still in their jurisdiction. Well, he climbed Denali (Mount McKinley) in 2008 when he was 11 years old and there’s no indication that the Alaskan authorities attempted anything to prevent it. And, Mount McKinley can be a dangerous mountain to climb. According [Huffington Post June 12, 2009](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/13/2-mount-mckinley-climbers_n_215152.html): > [@](#): > > Mislow and Swanson’s deaths bring to four the number of fatalities at McKinley so far this year. There were a total of four deaths last year. The most deadly year was 1992, a bad storm year, when 11 people died on the mountain, McLaughlin said. Many years there are no fatalities. Altogether, 106 people have died on McKinley since 1932, when the first two deaths occurred, according to Park Service statistics. > > In early May, 61-year-old climber William Hearne of Fairport, N.Y., collapsed after this team reached 13,500 feet and was pronounced dead soon after. On May 19, 41-year-old Gerald Myers, a chiropractor from Centennial, Colo., vanished after he left his climbing partners at 14,200 feet to make a solo summit attempt. His body has not been found, but McLaughlin said he is presumed dead. Searchers looking for him located the bodies of two Japanese climbers who went missing last year. Back to **Boyo Jim** : > [@](#): > > I’m not certain if intent to endanger the child is sufficient grounds. But I see in the OP linked article that a Dutch court took custody of a child to prevent her parents from allowing a similarly stupid stunt. So I would leave the legalities to the lawyers and drop a dime on the family. Well, the case of [Laura Dekker](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Dekker) is similar in that she is a minor undertaking a dangerous activity (solo sailing around the world). From [Sunday Star Times (New Zealand)](http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/sport/3569652/Surely-its-the-age-of-reason) a few days ago: > [@](#): > > Thankfully, however, Dekker’s sense of endeavour has prevailed. Having welcomed the overturning of a court order that prohibited her from embarking on the record-breaking attempt, she has recently announced plans to reschedule the voyage for July, this time in her newly-purchased 37ft Jeanneau ketch. This, after at one stage suggesting she’d consider chasing her goal from New Zealand if Dutch officialdom continued to stand in her way. We should be delighted to have her here, too, if it comes to that. To argue for an arbitrary age-limit on such activities is to argue for a life more ordinary; no exceptions allowed. Just as age is no measure of competency (as we’re repeatedly reminded each summer) neither is it a measure of incompetency. Also, as for the quantification of the risk: [QUOTE=Gorsnak] I submit that 1 in 50 chance of death is absolutely, beyond question too much risk to undertake for anyone but an informed, consenting adult. A 1 in many thousands chance of death, that we can debate. [/quote] Please provide the calculation that results in “1 in 50”. Are you using the data for all attempts back to 1922? Or for all summits from that date? Or, are you restricting the data to more recent attempts/summits? What about the specific climbing route and the time of year? Are they all equally dangerous? If ego is a consideration, then it makes sense that some highly experienced climbers tried a more challenging, more dangerous climb and some of them paid the ultimate price. Also, there are records for the fastest climb (any attempt at which would increase the risk) and some have attempted a climb solo and/or with no canned oxygen, and quite a few succeeded. (The merits of relying on canned oxygen are disputed by some.) And, although the weather is unpredictable, there are often warning signs that a climbers can choose to heed or ignore, at their own risk. Do all climbers accept the same level of risk? Given that many climbers did not reach the summit (and not because they died), it’s clear that many of them chose not to continue, for a variety of reasons, rather than subject themselves to even greater risk. I’m certainly not disputing that climbing Everest is very dangerous (nobody in this thread is disputing the danger), but I wonder how “1 in 50 chance of death” became a “fact”. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/169 "2010-04-18T22:08:58Z")
> [@Galileo](#): > > I’m certainly not disputing that climbing Everest is very dangerous (nobody in this thread is disputing the danger), but I wonder how “1 in 50 chance of death” became a “fact”. You got a better “fact”? Tell us YOUR numbers, reasoning, and calculations… If you don’t like someone else’s back of the envelope calculations, show us your better envelope… ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/170 "2010-04-19T00:38:16Z")
> [@Galileo](#): > > Well, he climbed Denali (Mount McKinley) in 2008 when he was 11 years old and there’s no indication that the Alaskan authorities attempted anything to prevent it. And, Mount McKinley can be a dangerous mountain to climb. … There’s no information the authorities knew anything about it in advance, or they might have done something. Though I was thinking about the California authorities because he lives there. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/171 "2010-04-19T01:50:09Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > There’s no information the authorities knew anything about it in advance, or they might have done something. Though I was thinking about the California authorities because he lives there. > **[Pay.gov - Denali NP&P Climbing Registration Form](https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/16355280/)** That’s the online registration form for climbing Denali, you need to provide the age for everyone in the group and the form must be filled out 60 days in advance of your climb. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/172 "2010-04-19T03:19:32Z")
I’m wondering if there is a sponsor out there who would front all the money for the expedition in return for the kid changing his name to Kenny. ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/173 "2010-04-19T03:36:25Z")
Well, if [Mary Woodbridge and her dachshund](http://www.mary-woodbridge.co.uk/frameset_mw.html) can do it… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/174 "2010-04-19T03:42:59Z")
> [@koeeoaddi](#): > > Well, if [Mary Woodbridge and her dachshund](http://www.mary-woodbridge.co.uk/frameset_mw.html) can do it… All I can think of is her holding a dog leash that is embedded in a pile of snow yelling “walkies”. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/175 "2010-04-19T05:21:17Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > [Pay.gov - Denali NP&P Climbing Registration Form](https://www.pay.gov/paygov/forms/formInstance.html?agencyFormId=16355280) > > That’s the online registration form for climbing Denali, you need to provide the age for everyone in the group and the form must be filled out 60 days in advance of your climb. That’s a Federal parks form. It’s very doubtful that any state agencies would ever see it. I looked at the FAQs link and didn’t see any restrictions at all as far as who may climb. That’s interesting – I wonder what would happen if a 12-year-old sent in a form without anyone else listed? There must be SOME restrictions, or there would be no point to collecting the data at all. Though aside from all this, comparing Everest to any North American peak is almost apples to oranges. Here, BTW, is the definition of child endangerment in California, [Section 273a.](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=6544753565+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve): > [@](#): > > 273a. (a) Any person who, under circumstances or conditions likely > to produce great bodily harm or death, willfully causes or permits > any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon unjustifiable physical pain > or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child, > willfully causes or permits the person or health of that child to be > injured, **or willfully causes or permits that child to be placed in a > situation where his or her person or health is endangered**, shall be > punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or > in the state prison for two, four, or six years. The bolding is mine. I don’t think there is any question at all that walking your child up Everest fits this definition. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/176 "2010-04-21T11:50:39Z")
The 13 year old, his dad, and his dad’s girlfriend were on the Today Show this morning. They’re all at base camp rarin’ to go, handfuls of little junk like rabbits feet to scatter at the summit when they get there. The dad pooh-poohed as ‘naysayers’ those who think a 13 year old is too young. So there. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/177 "2010-04-21T13:27:08Z")
I hope they all come off the mountain alive and intact. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/178 "2010-04-21T22:50:48Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Here, BTW, is the definition of child endangerment in California, [Section 273a.](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=6544753565+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve): > 273a. (a) Any person who, under circumstances or conditions likely > to produce great bodily harm or death, willfully causes or permits > any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon unjustifiable physical pain > or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child, > willfully causes or permits the person or health of that child to be > injured,\*\* or willfully causes or permits that child to be placed in a > situation where his or her person or health is endangered,\*\* shall be > punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or > in the state prison for two, four, or six years. > The bolding is mine. I don’t think there is any question at all that walking your child up Everest fits this definition. Almost anything fits this description. Allowing a child to play contact sports, for example. You really think it would be a good idea for social services to take the child from his parents? That the parents deserve to lose their kid? Or that the boy deserves to lose his parents? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/179 "2010-04-22T00:43:07Z")
> [@carm](#): > > Almost anything fits this description. Allowing a child to play contact sports, for example. > > You really think it would be a good idea for social services to take the child from his parents? That the parents deserve to lose their kid? Or that the boy deserves to lose his parents? I believe the parents shouln’t be allowed to expose the kid to this level of danger. If they would agree to cancel the expedition, that would be enough for me. And I understand that the law’s description is extremely vague, probably by design to allow for a prosector’s discretion. From what I’ve read the law is more often used to remove children from the homes of drug dealing parents. ---
**Author:** ![ajb867](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@ajb867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajb867)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192/180 "2010-04-22T01:11:59Z")
> [@carm](#): > > You really think it would be a good idea for social services to take the child from his parents? That the parents deserve to lose their kid? Or that the boy deserves to lose his parents? I think Everest is going to be more effiecent then social services in regards to all said scenarios. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-13-year-old-be-climbing-everest/536192.md?page=10)