# Should a belief that non-Christians are damned be a bar to public office in US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540 "2017-06-09T20:27:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/61 "2017-06-13T03:22:33Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Good grief. > > I did not say the “same belief.” I said the “same concept.” > > The concept in question – which **SHOULD** be immediately obvious – is that of being punished for wrong-doing. No it isn’t. The concept being attacked is disproportionate response. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/62 "2017-06-13T03:29:00Z")
Oh, I wasn’t under the impression that anything I said would be binding or actually affect what qualifies or disqualifies one from holding office in the US. It’s just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/63 "2017-06-13T03:55:26Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I am entirely comfortable with that. I also think people who listen to the dust-bunnies under their beds for advice on how to deal with environmental issues or run your educational system are not fit to govern. If virtually all the cultures of the world worshipped dust bunnies instead of the angry sky god, dust-bunny consultations would seem normal. But they don’t, so it isn’t. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Oh, I wasn’t under the impression that anything I said would be binding or actually affect what qualifies or disqualifies one from holding office in the US. It’s just my opinion. You seem to have lost the meaning of argumentation somewhere. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > Religion is losing importance and impact steadily in our society. Within a few generations, religion as it has been commonly known will no longer exist in any meaningful way. Organized religion, that is. Some people may believe in god but not have any interest in the institution of religion. I don’t know, it would be nice, and it seems to be moving in that direction in Europe, but the US is a strange animal, and I fear that rampant religiosity will continue to hold sway in many areas for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/64 "2017-06-13T04:41:22Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > If virtually all the cultures of the world worshipped dust bunnies instead of the angry sky god, dust-bunny consultations would seem normal. But they don’t, so it isn’t. Most cultures don’t have people in power arguing that bad weather is due to gods being angry about gay marriage or that Jesus would either fix industrial environmental damage or prevent it from happening in the first place. Religion’s fine if it doesn’t get in the way of the job being done. This does not seem to be the case in the US. > [@](#): > > You seem to have lost the meaning of argumentation somewhere. [John Cleese]No I haven’t.[/JC] ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/65 "2017-06-13T04:46:37Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Good grief. > > I did not say the “same belief.” I said the “same concept.” > > The concept in question – which **SHOULD** be immediately obvious – is that of being punished for wrong-doing. Disproportionately and horrifically. It’s not for nothing that “torture” isn’t on the prison agenda. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/66 "2017-06-13T05:06:34Z")
Treating religious people differently simply because of their religion is religious bigotry, and just much a problem as any other form of bigotry. Thinking badly of them falls into the same category I stated above. There’s not really much a difference to their thinking atheists are damned. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/67 "2017-06-13T05:17:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Treating religious people differently simply because of their religion is religious bigotry, and just much a problem as any other form of bigotry. > > Thinking badly of them falls into the same category I stated above. There’s not really much a difference to their thinking atheists are damned. So if I hold and espouse the belief that certain members of my community deserve to be tortured forever on non-rational grounds, this should have no impact on how the community sees me? Would you say the same thing if this belief _wasn’t_ religious? It sure as hell isn’t going to have zero impact on how I govern my constituency, I’ll tell you that much. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/68 "2017-06-13T10:58:09Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So if I hold and espouse the belief that certain members of my community deserve to be tortured forever on non-rational grounds, this should have no impact on how the community sees me? Would you say the same thing if this belief _wasn’t_ religious? It sure as hell isn’t going to have zero impact on how I govern my constituency, I’ll tell you that much. If you want to know what it is like to live in a culture where the leadership thinks that all people who aren’t Christians go to hell, then you only need to look at the history of Western civilization for the last 1700 years or so. You don’t have to speculate about how those leaders would treat their constituents because that is what most of our (western) leaders have already believed for many, many generations. “If you aren’t a Christian you go to hell” isn’t some fringe belief by a few small outliers, it is one of the centric, core principles of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/69 "2017-06-13T17:16:47Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Similarly, if you believe that non-christians are _damned_ to an eternity of torture… Well, fuck. That’s an _evil_ belief. I’m sorry. The idea that believers in OUR religion go to heaven and sinners go to Hell is hardly Christian only. Muslims think that they go to heaven and non-believers go to hell. Naraka, the Hindu Hell(s) is a place of horrible torture. Jewish beliefs are not solid on the issue of the afterlife, but some do believe the 'utterly wicked" have eternal punishment. > **[Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition | My Jewish Learning](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/heaven-and-hell-in-jewish-tradition/)** > > Heaven and Hell in Judaism. Jewish Life After Death. Jewish Afterlife and Eschatology. Jewish View on Next Life. Jewish Ideas and Beliefs and of course not all Christians think that non-Christians all go to Hell. Not to mention the Pope sez there is no ‘torture’ other than the fact you realize you fucked up, it’s your fault and you never bask in the Glory of G-d. [http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/11/25/pope\_eternal\_damnation\_is\_distance\_from\_god/1274750](http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/11/25/pope_eternal_damnation_is_distance_from_god/1274750) _"Eternal damnation is not a torture chamber. That’s a description of this second death: it is a death. And those who will not be received in the Kingdom of God, it’s because they have not drawn close to the Lord. These are the people who journeyed along their own path, distancing themselves from the Lord and passing in front of the Lord but then choosing to walk away from Him. Eternal damnation is continually distancing oneself from God. It is the worst pain, an unsatisfied heart, a heart that was created to find God but which, out of arrogance and self-confidence, distances itself from God.”_ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/70 "2017-06-13T17:18:47Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Eternal damnation in hell vs. confinement for a pre-determined portion of a person’s life? How are these different expressions of the same belief? It’s not always “eternal damnation”. Some Christians feel you get out once you\* truly \*repent. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/71 "2017-06-13T17:23:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s not always “eternal damnation”. Some Christians feel you get out once you\* truly \*repent. Are you sure you’re not thinking of Purgatory? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/72 "2017-06-13T17:32:18Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Nobody, and I mean NOBODY in the rest of the western world gives a shit about religious affiliations in public office. It’s only the US who go apeshit about the possibility of someone OMG, NOT BEING A CHRISTIAN being a pollie or holding a public appointment. > . So, the _Christian Democratic Party_ of France doesnt care about you being a Christian? There’s also the wiki : \*The Reformed Political Party (Dutch: Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij, SGP) is an orthodox Calvinist[8] political party in the Netherlands. The term Reformed is not a reference to political reform, but is a synonym for Calvinism—a major branch of Protestantism. The SGP is the oldest political party in the Netherlands in its current form, and has for its entire existence been in opposition. \* You also dont seem to know much about politics in Israel. :rolleyes: Or Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/73 "2017-06-13T17:34:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Are you sure you’re not thinking of Purgatory? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/74 "2017-06-13T17:35:00Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So if I hold and espouse the belief that certain members of my community deserve to be tortured forever on non-rational grounds, this should have no impact on how the community sees me? Would you say the same thing if this belief _wasn’t_ religious? It sure as hell isn’t going to have zero impact on how I govern my constituency, I’ll tell you that much. So, if I hold the belief that certain members of my community are mentally unstable because of religious beliefs that are common throughout the country, this should have no impact on how the community sees me? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/75 "2017-06-13T18:35:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The idea that believers in OUR religion go to heaven and sinners go to Hell is hardly Christian only. Yep, no argument there. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > If you want to know what it is like to live in a culture where the leadership thinks that all people who aren’t Christians go to hell, then you only need to look at the history of Western civilization for the last 1700 years or so. You don’t have to speculate about how those leaders would treat their constituents because that is what most of our (western) leaders have already believed for many, many generations. “If you aren’t a Christian you go to hell” isn’t some fringe belief by a few small outliers, it is one of the centric, core principles of Christianity. Yeah. How’d that work out for atheists in the 1300s? Or, indeed, most of world history? Atheists are evil. Atheists are untrustworthy. Atheists have no morals. Atheists are bound for hell, so we must convert them with _fire_. These beliefs color how people see the world. In the USA today, Atheists are among the most mistrusted groups, up there with rapists and pedophiles, and to my knowledge there is still not a single atheist member of congress. Beliefs matter. The very least I can say about my congressman > [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, if I hold the belief that certain members of my community are mentally unstable because of religious beliefs that are common throughout the country, this should have no impact on how the community sees me? I didn’t say that. It’s possible to hold a belief which, from an outside view, is completely fucking batty ([quick, tell me the difference between a real religion and an obvious con job once the latter reaches a few million adherents](http://squid314.livejournal.com/330728.html)!), can, through indoctrination, become deeply ingrained and very hard to question, even for people who [really ought to know better](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins). Relevant read: “[Raising the sanity waterline](http://lesswrong.com/lw/1e/raising_the_sanity_waterline/)”: > [@](#): > > And they can’t be isolated exceptions. If all of their professional compatriots had taken that course, then Smalley or Aumann would either have been corrected (as their colleagues kindly took them aside and explained the bare fundamentals) or else regarded with too much pity and concern to win a Nobel Prize. Could you—realistically speaking, regardless of fairness—win a Nobel while advocating the existence of Santa Claus? > > That’s what the dead canary, religion, is telling us: that the general sanity waterline is currently really ridiculously low. Even in the highest halls of science. > > If we throw out that dead and rotting canary, then our mine may stink a bit less, but the sanity waterline may not rise much higher. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Plutonium\_Kid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Plutonium\_Kid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Plutonium_Kid)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/76 "2017-06-14T02:30:55Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > If you want to know what it is like to live in a culture where the leadership thinks that all people who aren’t Christians go to hell, then you only need to look at the history of Western civilization for the last 1700 years or so. You don’t have to speculate about how those leaders would treat their constituents because that is what most of our (western) leaders have already believed for many, many generations. “If you aren’t a Christian you go to hell” isn’t some fringe belief by a few small outliers, it is one of the centric, core principles of Christianity. You need to take another look at Western history, this time without the anti-Christian prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/77 "2017-06-14T16:39:48Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > If you want to know what it is like to live in a culture where the leadership thinks that all people who aren’t Christians go to hell, then you only need to look at the history of Western civilization for the last 1700 years or so. You don’t have to speculate about how those leaders would treat their constituents because that is what most of our (western) leaders have already believed for many, many generations. “If you aren’t a Christian you go to hell” isn’t some fringe belief by a few small outliers, it is one of the centric, core principles of Christianity. You only have to look at the history of Humankind to realize that pretty much\* every religio\*n thinks something like that. Nor is that a centric core principle. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/78 "2017-06-14T17:19:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nor is that a centric core principle. [Yes,](http://www.bible-knowledge.com/jesus-is-the-only-way/)[it is](http://www.bible-knowledge.com/the-doctrine-of-hell/). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/79 "2017-06-14T17:32:06Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [Yes,](http://www.bible-knowledge.com/jesus-is-the-only-way/)[it is](http://www.bible-knowledge.com/the-doctrine-of-hell/). That is a blog run by a guy, who isnt a religious authority. Those are his beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540/80 "2017-06-14T17:34:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You only have to look at the history of Humankind to realize that pretty much _every religio_n thinks something like that. Interesting discussion on the [Religious Forums message board](https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/religions-with-no-hell.146588/) about all the religions that don’t have a concept of Hell. edited to add: Also, check out the “Afterlife” column on [The Big Religion Chart.](http://www.religionfacts.com/big-religion-chart) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-belief-that-non-christians-are-damned-be-a-bar-to-public-office-in-us/788540.md?page=5)