# Should a face veil, (niqab), be banned for Muslim women in a public role? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2013, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292 "2013-09-20T09:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pdunderhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@pdunderhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdunderhill)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/1 "2013-09-20T09:20:48Z")
Hello good dopers, in the UK the national Health Service, NHS, is about to start a public consultation regarding the wearing of Niqabs by health care professionals. A UK judge has recently insisted that a female Muslim defendant in a fraud case should expose her face whilst under questioning and sentence but not during the rest of the trial. One point to underline is that Niqabs and attire, in general, are primarily cultural mores not religious. Your thoughts good people, Peter ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/2 "2013-09-20T09:32:57Z")
They should be treated legally like any other face covering. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/3 "2013-09-20T09:43:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They should be treated legally like any other face covering. Yup. If it’s a context in which it is inappropriate to wear a motorcycle helmet, it’s inappropriate to wear a niqab. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/4 "2013-09-20T09:56:25Z")
We already had this debate in the Netherlands, and the outcome was the same. Headscarves okay, niquabs not okay. More interesting, from a legal point of view was the case of a young Dutch militant fundie Muslim woman who insisted on wearing a niquab, consequently didn’t get hired in public service jobs, and applied for unemployment benefits. (Resulting in an almost audible groan of “please don’t embarrass us even more” from all the other million _reasonable_ muslims in the Netherlands, by the way). The judge ruled that indeed, the woman made herself effectively unhirable, and she was denied unemployment benefits. ---
**Author:** ![pdunderhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@pdunderhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdunderhill)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/5 "2013-09-20T11:07:00Z")
Thanks for that wonderfully quixotic nugget of Ditch news Maastricht. Just when you think people can’t get further divorced from reality… As an addendum to the post would anyone feel uncomfortable refusing the services, be nice!, of a Doctor or a Consultant if she wore head ware that covered her face? Peter ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/6 "2013-09-20T11:34:23Z")
As wearing a face veil effectively cuts you off from interacting with the rest of society, I fail to see how the wearer might think this is appropriate for a public facing role. You don’t get it both ways. Whilst I agree that we should accommodate different cultures as far as possible, that should be not at the expense of operating a proper service for the community, be it as a health professional, a school teacher, a social worker or anything else which requires building trust and empathy with strangers in need. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/7 "2013-09-20T11:54:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They should be treated legally like any other face covering. These are probably the smartest ten words ever written on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/8 "2013-09-20T13:09:01Z")
I guess I don’t care too much about the healthcare worker, although admittedly I would not go back. But defendant in a fraud case? Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/9 "2013-09-20T14:15:03Z")
I would refuse to use any health care worker who refused to show their face for any reason other than sanitation. If I’m the patient, then it’s **my** cultural standards that apply, not the professionals. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/10 "2013-09-20T15:17:27Z")
There was a case in Florida about ten years ago where a woman sued the state to permit her to have her driver’s license photo taken while wearing a face covering that showed only her eyes. The ACLU [supported](https://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/aclu-asks-florida-court-reinstate-suspended-drivers-license-muslim-woman-forced-remo) her, but the court [ruled](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-06-06-license-veil_x.htm) against her. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/11 "2013-09-20T17:09:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They should be treated legally like any other face covering. Good one. I was disappointed with the French when they passed a law disallowing them in public (if IIRC). I see that as significantly worse than making a ruling for specific roles, as the UK seems to be doing. But still, it should focus on the facts: covering the face, or not. And every attempt should be made to accommodate common religious practices. In the French case, it seemed the opposite way: they were using utilitarian excuses for what was really a religious (or, anti-religious) campaign. And still the resulting language wasn’t utilitarian at all, so the law met the goals of the proponents, but sidestepped their justifications entirely. Americans do that too, and I’m always ashamed when it happens. I’m not picking on the French as French, just this case of them being what I’d call pig-headed. They have no corner on that market, though! ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/12 "2013-09-20T17:43:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They should be treated legally like any other face covering. Are there any laws about face coverings? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/13 "2013-09-20T18:00:07Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Are there any laws about face coverings? Well, like many states, Virginia [prohibits](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-422) the wearing of face coverings in public, except for holiday costumes, theatrical productions, or medical need. It’s an anti-Klan law. I suspect that the First Amendment might require a religious exemption in some circumstances, but the law has probably never been enforced against a Muslim woman. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/14 "2013-09-20T18:04:15Z")
Initially I believed that face coverings generally should be banned for all public employees but I’ve re-considered my view in light of the uproar caused by Quebec’s Charter of Values that outlaws ANY religious garb or display of religious artifacts (crosses, star of david, etc) as a public servant. I really don’t care what you profess to believe so long as you a) Do your job well, b) aren’t prosyletizing while at work. To do so for anything other than safety or security seems to me to be almost like the Middle Ages sumptuary laws. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/15 "2013-09-20T20:39:06Z")
Forgive my quoting [myself](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14797666&postcount=221), but I think this earlier explanation of why I think face-hiding _niqab_ or _burqa_ wearing is not acceptable for women participating as members of the public in a secular society is relevant here: > [@Kimstu](#): > > I have explained in a number of similar threads before this my take on the principle that “_burqa = purdah_”: i.e., wearing the _burqa_ is a tacit acceptance of the conservative Islamic prohibition against women participating in society outside their own homes or interacting in any way with males they’re not related to. > > The _burqa_ should rightly be permitted as a sort of mobile _purdah_ environment for Muslim women who need to do things like grocery shopping and going to the doctor while still technically not interacting with strangers. **But Muslim women who want to participate in secular society in any meaningful way—whether by holding a job, taking a class, having an interview with a government official, whatever—need to comply with the universal custom in secular society of showing one’s face to strangers and speaking to them directly.** Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/16 "2013-09-21T01:28:58Z")
I’m comfortable setting different rules for France and the US. If France wants to ban face coverings for those walking on public streets or buying food at the grocery, have at it. But I’d expect civil disobedience. In the US, traditional first amendment concerns should be respected. If there’s a safety or job-related reason why people need to look at your face, then that should be a consideration for hiring. But what about telephone correspondent? Or other sorts of back office work? I think a burqa could plausibly be accommodated under such circumstances. Since I’m pushing the idea of permissiveness for limited cross-country diversity, appropriate US policy necessarily becomes related to existing precedent and statute - which as a layman I am unfamiliar with. Permissiveness isn’t without bound though, there are universal human rights that need to be understood. I’m just claiming that they permit a range of policies in this context. TL;DR: I’d eschew universals when addressing the OP. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/17 "2013-09-21T01:47:24Z")
Are there coverings which meet the cultural imperative while not obstructing the face? If you want t wear a transparent covering, fine. Otherwise, yes, it is the same as any other face covering. There was some noise recently about a woman who wanted a driver’s license and refusing to uncover her face for the pic. The problem would be that such a license could be used by any person wanting to appear in the same clothing style. I do hope common sense prevailed. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/18 "2013-09-21T01:59:40Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > I was disappointed with the French when they passed a law disallowing them in public (if IIRC). I thought they just banned them in schools. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/19 "2013-09-21T02:49:08Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > There was a case in Florida about ten years ago where a woman sued the state to permit her to have her driver’s license photo taken while wearing a face covering that showed only her eyes. The ACLU [supported](https://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/aclu-asks-florida-court-reinstate-suspended-drivers-license-muslim-woman-forced-remo) her, but the court [ruled](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-06-06-license-veil_x.htm) against her. That woman was an idiot. I bet she was probably some idiot convert who knew nothing about the religion. Without a single exception, every Muslim majority country in the world, even Saudi Arabia requires women to remove veils from their face for ID cards, passports, driver’s licenses\*, etc. \*. Obviously in the case of Saudi Arabia, it’s not an issue regarding driver’s licenses but it certainly is regarding the others. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/20 "2013-09-21T02:58:29Z")
Well, the story indicate a that she was a convert. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292.md?page=2)