# Should a face veil, (niqab), be banned for Muslim women in a public role? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2013, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292 "2013-09-20T09:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/21 "2013-09-21T02:59:30Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I would refuse to use any health care worker who refused to show their face for any reason other than sanitation. If I’m the patient, then it’s **my** cultural standards that apply, not the professionals. So then if you’re racist then any black health care workers should address you as “massuh” and say “yassuh massuh” and “nosah massuh”? Similarly, should Muslim female patients be allowed to require all female healthcare to wear hijabs? Look, I actually think it’s perfectly valid to require people working in the healtcare industry to have their faces uncovered and I’m certainly not accusing you of being a bigot, but the “I’m a patient, it’s ‘my cultural standards’ that apply” is a really short-sighted idea. To give one obvious example, if you’ve ever worked in an elderly healthcare facility, you’ll notice the overwhelming majority of patients are elderly whites, often suffering from dementia, and many of the staff tend to be African-Americans and the staff often have to put up with enough crap as is. Were the facilities to adopt the argument you just put forth, things would be even worse for them. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/22 "2013-09-21T03:00:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Well, the story indicate a that she was a convert. I’m not surprised. Had she tried pulling crap in Egypt, Morocco, or Jordan the authorities wouldn’t have put up with that crap for two seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/23 "2013-09-21T03:06:59Z")
> [@pdunderhill](#): > > One point to underline is that Niqabs and attire, in general, are primarily cultural mores not religious. I know a lot of Americans like to put religion and culture in separate little boxes but I think that’s a mistake. How people interpret their religion is a part of their culture. Muslims certainly aren’t a monolithic group and different people have different interpretations of what proper attire is. I don’t think there’s any clear line between cultural and religious from the point of view for those who wear veils. I’ve only seen one woman here in the United States who covered her face in public. She was wearing one of those beekeeper outfits, burqa, while crossing the street at Parker and Independence in Plano, Texas. I sure didn’t expect to see her there. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/24 "2013-09-21T03:34:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Forgive my quoting [myself](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14797666&postcount=221), but I think this earlier explanation of why I think face-hiding _niqab_ or _burqa_ wearing is not acceptable for women participating as members of the public in a secular society is relevant here: > > Emphasis added. I think you’ve stated it beautifully. The basic premise of the veiled Islamic woman is to avoid interaction outside of a very closed arena. A burqah is essentially a mobile tent the purpose of which is precisely to obstruct interaction (especially with males unrelated to the wearer). Therefore it’s oxymoronic to propose that women whose faces are veiled should be accommodated into any situations where interaction with others is a normal part of the role. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/25 "2013-09-21T12:04:03Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I have explained in a number of similar threads before this my take on the principle that “burqa = purdah”: i.e., wearing the burqa is a tacit acceptance of the conservative Islamic prohibition against women participating in society outside their own homes or interacting in any way with males they’re not related to. > > The burqa should rightly be permitted as a sort of mobile purdah environment for Muslim women who need to do things like grocery shopping and going to the doctor while still technically not interacting with strangers. But Muslim women who want to participate in secular society in any meaningful way—whether by holding a job, taking a class, having an interview with a government official, whatever—need to comply with the universal custom in secular society of showing one’s face to strangers and speaking to them directly. I missed that post earlier, and I like it. Seen like that, the niquab makes sense in an internally consistent system. Militant niquab wearers seem to miss this point, and seem to want to wear the niquab especially while interacting with the public. The only reasons I can see to that is wanting to shock (a desire often seen in young people of either gender 🙂 ). And because if covering your hair means being good, then covering more of everything else seems to be the super duper, turned-to-eleven-version of that. And it isn’t. Niquab, as you say, is meant, not to _have to_ interact. Wearing a niquab is like to going out in [full mourning clothes](https://www.google.nl/search?q=mourning+attire&safe=off&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=r4s9UsngNa-20QXy7oDwDA&ved=0CEEQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=979&dpr=1), including a face veil, and then insisting to joke around with everyone. Niquab wearers are just Muslim Goths ! ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/26 "2013-09-21T14:20:42Z")
I had fair number of Muslim friends back when I was in college, and I have both read the Koran in translation and asked a fair number of questions. There is nothing in the Koran that says the face needs to be totally covered - modesty requires the arms to the ends of the wrists and the legs to the ankles, and the hair [and of course the rest of the body] but nothing about the face. I make medieval persian clothing that absolutely fits the requirements and have gotten stared at because it is rich fabrics, and beautiful brocades [and I recently finished and delivered a ‘cloud collar’ that had gold bullion and pearlwork on it, based on [figure 21](http://windchild.net/persian-embroidery-a-study-in-miniatures/)] that admittedly would get me arrested and physically punished currently in some of the more fundamentalist countries. Why they decided dark blues and blacks are the only really acceptable colors for women is beyond me - I don’t see us women as inherently evil. There is something fundamentally bad about that. Stumptuary laws are one of the ways that a heirarchy will restrict people and the whole chadri/burqua/veil movement is specifically designed to keep women from fully particpating in society. Historically women were not forced to cover every inch of their bodies. And for the question - if they are being photographed for ID, or doing anything face to face like speaking in court, conducting business or working with people they need to expose the face. There was a movement in Israel [of all places] where some of the ultra orthodox women were using the burqua and there was a bit of [contention](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7919501/Israeli-rabbis-clamp-down-on-burka.html) over the whole mess in 2010. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/27 "2013-09-21T14:47:43Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I make medieval persian clothing that absolutely fits the requirements and have gotten stared at because it is rich fabrics, and beautiful brocades [and I recently finished and delivered a ‘cloud collar’ that had gold bullion and pearlwork on it, based on [figure 21](http://windchild.net/persian-embroidery-a-study-in-miniatures/)]… Do you by chance have any photos of your finished works? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/28 "2013-09-21T15:14:44Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > In the US, traditional first amendment concerns should be respected. If there’s a safety or job-related reason why people need to look at your face, then that should be a consideration for hiring. But what about telephone correspondent? Or other sorts of back office work? I think a burqa could plausibly be accommodated under such circumstances. So could cosplay, or fetish clothing. Or nudism. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/29 "2013-09-21T15:44:35Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > There is nothing in the Koran that says the face needs to be totally covered - modesty requires the arms to the ends of the wrists and the legs to the ankles, and the hair [and of course the rest of the body] but nothing about the face. cite? This is the most widely held view, but just one interpretation. Nothing in the Koran clearly requires the hair to be covered. The following surah seems to assume a head covering will be worn, not surprising for either gender considering the climate, and requires that it be wrapped around the boobies when unrelated menfolk are around. [http://quran.com/24/31](http://quran.com/24/31) > [@](#): > > And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, their brothers’ sons, their sisters’ sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/30 "2013-09-21T15:44:57Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > So could cosplay, or fetish clothing. Or nudism. Why not? So, you’re saying that if you’re being hired for an office job the boss should be able to fire Jewish males if they want to wear yarmulkas? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/31 "2013-09-21T15:49:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I thought they just banned them in schools. AFAIK schools and public buildings (that is to say, for public clerks and so on - as far as I’m aware you can show up at the DMV in a full-on fursuit and it won’t be an issue until the issue of photo ID comes up) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/32 "2013-09-21T15:54:03Z")
It seems part of the reason for women wearing the niqab is to cut her off from society, as she would be dependent on family and husband for that connection through them/him. Part of wearing it, or the spirit behind wearing it is being removed from society. In a job situation, by taking a job you are entering society so the niqab should come off because you took the action to enter, you give up the right to the veil from it. In a court situation it is a bit different, the question is can or perhaps more specifically should a court force someone who chooses not to be a part of society to be a part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/33 "2013-09-21T16:03:56Z")
That being said, I was as disappointed as \*\*Learjeff \*\*at the law, because it was fundamentally hypocritical, Islamophobic horse puckey : the law bans “ostensible outward signs of religion” (or something to that effect, I can’t be arsed to search and quote for the actual text). Which means that crosses or stars of David worn on a necklace chain are A-OK because _theoretically_ they can be hidden under clothes (but in practice, like your supervisor is going to give a fig) but any and all scarves are verboten because ostensible. It’s the textbook example of a law that on paper sounds fair and equitable, but in practice is, and I quote Larry Wilmore, “some buuuullshit”. As for me, I don’t think niqabs are an issue at all, nor do I understand how they “cut you off from interracting with society” (hi **SanVito** ). Do you _really_ need to see the annoyed smirk of the DMV clerk, the pursed lips of your math teacher when you fuck up yet another theorem ? Niqabs are a problem when it comes to IDing the person, in which case I think it’s OK to tell them to pull it up for the purpose of the check, but beyond that, whatever. Hell, as a friend of Internet communication, I believe it’s _better_ when people communicating don’t see each other, since there’s so much pre-judging and unconscious bullshit beyond the words packed into visual & verbal communication. People are more honest and open when they don’t know I’m in my skivvies. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/34 "2013-09-21T16:06:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So, you’re saying that if you’re being hired for an office job the boss should be able to fire Jewish males if they want to wear yarmulkas? Sure, as long as you have a non-bigoted reason to require the head to be uncovered, even a trivial one, and it applies to everyone. If the office manager comes to work in a ball cap every day and then bans head coverings as soon as the hijabi gets hired that is a different story. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/35 "2013-09-21T16:29:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So, you’re saying that if you’re being hired for an office job the boss should be able to fire Jewish males if they want to wear yarmulkas? I asked first. What about a Batman cape? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/36 "2013-09-21T18:55:01Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > cite? This is the most widely held view, but just one interpretation. Nothing in the Koran clearly requires the hair to be covered. The following surah seems to assume a head covering will be worn, not surprising for either gender considering the climate, and requires that it be wrapped around the boobies when unrelated menfolk are around. They’re just being extra careful. It’s a cover-your-ass approach. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/37 "2013-09-21T20:53:51Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > So could cosplay, or fetish clothing. Or nudism. Why not? Because cosplay etc. doesn’t have a valid religious basis for extending legal protections. Religious observance was the basis for my reasonable accommodation argument in a US context. If you want to claim that your nudism has religious basis, your claim would have to be subject to judicial scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/38 "2013-09-21T20:59:38Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Because cosplay etc. doesn’t have a valid religious basis for extending legal protections. Religious observance was the basis for my reasonable accommodation argument in a US context. > > If you want to claim that your nudism has religious basis, your claim would have to be subject to judicial scrutiny. As stated above wearing niqab is a social norm not a religious requirement. Unless you are claiming a “first amendment” right to wear it due to the freedom of association I think you do not have a point. But if that was your point that freedom of association is not limited to religious groups and would apply to cosplay etc. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/39 "2013-09-21T21:21:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > As stated above wearing niqab is a social norm not a religious requirement. Unless you are claiming a “first amendment” right to wear it due to the freedom of association I think you do not have a point. > > But if that was your point that freedom of association is not limited to religious groups and would apply to cosplay etc. This is a fair response. While I interpret niqab as a social norm, I suspect that a plaintiff/defendant could credibly argue that they are wearing it for reasons of religious conscience. If they can’t, then it doesn’t deserve constitutional protection, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/40 "2013-09-21T21:43:27Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > I asked first. What about a Batman cape? Ok, I’ll take that as a yes, that if tomorrow the New York City Council were to declare no City Councilmen could wear a yarmulka you would celebrate the effective banning of Orthodox Jews from serving on it. BTW, that’s not a gotcha. I assume that’s what you honestly believe unless of course you’re a hypocrite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292.md?page=3)