# Should a face veil, (niqab), be banned for Muslim women in a public role? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2013, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292 "2013-09-20T09:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/101 "2013-09-26T08:33:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > If we can make an exception for hobbies, why not for belief? I’m not sure here but I think the knife issue is probably not a good example. In fact as described it might be perfect of example of where religion and culture are given exactly the same weight as a secular personal desire and subject to the same rules. As such I’d have no problem leaving it as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/102 "2013-09-26T09:46:51Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That’s right, and we are doing that are we not? > Where am I being pedantic? I’m for loosening up laws in some cases and widening the exceptions whilst tightening up in others. > > Nothing that I have said has been intolerant, We just draw the lines in different places. I would like a secular society that draws up laws practically with regard to all deeply held cultural beliefs and societal norms. That balancing act is difficult but religious belief should never be a guarantee of special treatment. If the laws we make _incidentally_ contradict a religious or cultural norm then it is up the religion to bend. As they have done throughout history and continue to do to this day. > > But religion should not be sufficient reason for exceptions in and of itself and to the exclusion of other sincerely held personal and cultural beliefs. Otherwise you find yourself in the position of deciding what is a “real” religion and what is a “valid” cultural belief and good luck with that. > > Saying “I physically cannot comply” is the point at which we pull out all the stops to look for exceptions. > “that is against my beliefs” should not enough to guarantee the same accommodation only when applied to religions, my deeply held beliefs are the equal of any religion and deserve equal consideration. I’d like to know your reasoning as to why that isn’t the case. > > Seeing as I’ve answered you fully you might dome the courtesy of answering two straight questions. > > Are religious beliefs worth more than my personal deeply held beliefs? > > Do you think selection on religious grounds should be allowed in state-funded schools? Let us take another example- should Moslems have special diets in prisons, hospitals, schools etc? As to your two questions, I do not think religious beliefs are different from other deeply held beliefs. I do not think that state schools should have any religious management. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/103 "2013-09-26T10:02:09Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m not sure here but I think the knife issue is probably not a good example. > In fact as described it might be perfect of example of where religion and culture are given exactly the same weight as a secular personal desire and subject to the same rules. As such I’d have no problem leaving it as it is. In my view it is an excellent example equating strong belief and liberty with both religious and non-religious desires. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/104 "2013-09-26T10:04:09Z")
A further question- should Moslem parents be allowed to educate their children in Islamic schools? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/105 "2013-09-26T10:05:43Z")
Should local authorities allow eruvs to be erected? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/106 "2013-09-26T10:07:22Z")
Should Christians be allowed to refuse to work on the Sabbath? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/107 "2013-09-26T11:21:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Let us take another example- should Moslems have special diets in prisons, hospitals, schools etc? On both the supply and demand side, the government has an obligation not to discriminate on the basis of religion. On the demand side, a Muslim should be able to select non-pork dishes, but so should anyone else. But on the supply side the government should not discriminate against non-Muslim butchers just to supply Halal meat. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/108 "2013-09-26T11:34:54Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > On both the supply and demand side, the government has an obligation not to discriminate on the basis of religion. On the demand side, a Muslim should be able to select non-pork dishes, but so should anyone else. But on the supply side the government should not discriminate against non-Muslim butchers just to supply Halal meat. Halal means more than no pork. Some non-Muslims will object to eating meat slaughtered using Halal methods. Not as simple as you imply. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/109 "2013-09-26T12:17:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > A further question- should Moslem parents be allowed to educate their children in Islamic schools? Private? yes they can do what they want with their own money. State? A school should be free to set itself up as Islamic but to set any religious criteria on entry should be as illegal as setting entry criteria on skin colour or political affiliation of the parents. Even then, should they choose to continue I’d want careful auditing of the curriculum. Same goes for Catholic, Jewish or any religion and belief system. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/110 "2013-09-26T12:21:13Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Let us take another example- should Moslems have special diets in prisons, hospitals, schools etc? Of course, as long as others are extended the same courtesy, vegetarians, people that don’t eat fish. If Moslems were the only ones allowed a different diet then yes, I’d have a problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/111 "2013-09-26T12:25:05Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Private? yes they can do what they want with their own money. > State? A school should be free to set itself up as Islamic but to set any religious criteria on entry should be as illegal as setting entry criteria on skin colour or political affiliation of the parents. Even then, should they choose to continue I’d want careful auditing of the curriculum. Same goes for Catholic, Jewish or any religion and belief system. Are you in the US or UK? Or elsewhere? AFAIK both places allow religious foundation schools to set entry criteria. For cause. They are private institutions set up to provide education for people of a single faith- should religious education not be allowed? In the UK Catholic Schools may admit all Cathlics in the area that wish to go and after that must admit non Catholics to its limit- and these are publicly funded schools! ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/112 "2013-09-26T12:25:51Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Should local authorities allow eruvs to be erected? That’s new one on me. Had to google it and, though I’m still not sure exactly what they are trying to accomplish, it seems to be an attempt to circumvent the tenets of the religion. Are they trying to fool god? is it the jewish equivalent of crossing your fingers when promising? Anyway, silly but harmless. And again I believe I am consistent in all my answers. As long as what they do doesn’t materially harm anyone else I can’t see an objection. If the local morris-dancing group wanted to put up bunting and were refused by the same council then…again…I’d have a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/113 "2013-09-26T12:28:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Should Christians be allowed to refuse to work on the Sabbath? As long as the same flexible options are open to non-christians and other workers yes. That would be an arrangement to be made within contract negotiations. \*Only \*allowing religious people to make flexible working demands would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/114 "2013-09-26T12:28:37Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Of course, as long as others are extended the same courtesy, vegetarians, people that don’t eat fish. If Moslems were the only ones allowed a different diet then yes, I’d have a problem with that. But here we get the question of reasonableness. What if someone only wanted quality food. I am trying to point out that most laws and regulations have reasonableness clauses that allow flexibility, and these should be applied to religion as well as to other exceptions. To be rigid especially with religious desires and requests would be bigotry of the worst kind. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/115 "2013-09-26T12:29:46Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > As long as the same flexible options are open to non-christians and other workers yes. That would be an arrangement to be made within contract negotiations. > > \*Only \*allowing religious people to make flexible working demands would be wrong. The current law differs from that somewhat in both the UK and US. Should it be tightened to meet your more oppressive criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/116 "2013-09-26T12:35:09Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That’s new one on me. Had to google it and, though I’m still not sure exactly what they are trying to accomplish, it seems to be an attempt to circumvent the tenets of the religion. Are they trying to fool god? is it the jewish equivalent of crossing your fingers when promising? > > Anyway, silly but harmless. And again I believe I am consistent in all my answers. As long as what they do doesn’t materially harm anyone else I can’t see an objection. If the local morris-dancing group wanted to put up bunting and were refused by the same council then…again…I’d have a problem. Erecting Eruvs in Manchester and London caused major anti Semitic complaints. You obviously know nothing of the intricacies of Rabbinical interpretation if you find the concept of an Eruv strange! SO then, as long as what people ask for does not harm others to any extent, then such special considerations may be made- I would tend to agree. Which is why I am considerably more relaxed about face coverings than many posters here. It is a bit like Gay Marriage- Gays getting married does not harm Straights, even bigoted straights. Similalry, someone using a face covering does not harm people who wish people to see their faces, except in circumstances where face coverings are necessarily banned. If you visit sub-fascist web sites in the UK you will find many bigots using Islamic practices to stir up anti-Islamic feeling by using the same arguments displayed by some above. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/117 "2013-09-26T12:35:16Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Are you in the US or UK? Or elsewhere? AFAIK both places allow religious foundation schools to set entry criteria. For cause. They are private institutions set up to provide education for people of a single faith- should religious education not be allowed? I’m UK. so can’t speak on US policy. As I understand it, private schools in the UK are free to do what the heck they want. I wouldn’t ban them but I’d make sure they had no state funding at all. > [@](#): > > In the UK Catholic Schools may admit all Cathlics in the area that wish to go and after that must admit non Catholics to its limit- and these are publicly funded schools! And it is precisely that issue that I find impossible to defend. A _state_ school, using _public_ money, sets up entry criteria that discriminates on the grounds of religion (parent’s religion in fact, seeing as the children haven’t offered any informed opinion). In any other public institution such behaviour would see the board hauled up in court. Under no circumstances should any state school be able to take religion into consideration. Never. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/118 "2013-09-26T12:40:21Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Halal means more than no pork. Some non-Muslims will object to eating meat slaughtered using Halal methods. Not as simple as you imply. That is another topic but certainly forcing non-halal meat on Muslims is just as bad as forcing halal meat on those who consider the ritual slaughter used as unnecessarily cruel. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/119 "2013-09-26T12:44:27Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > But here we get the question of reasonableness. What if someone only wanted quality food. > > I am trying to point out that most laws and regulations have reasonableness clauses that allow flexibility, and these should be applied to religion as well as to other exceptions. > > To be rigid especially with religious desires and requests would be bigotry of the worst kind. I don’t think we actually disagree on this. I’m not suggesting (and have not done in any of our discussions) that we don’t take religious desire into account, merely that the exemptions it demands are also available to others. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292/120 "2013-09-26T12:47:11Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The current law differs from that somewhat in both the UK and US. Should it be tightened to meet your more oppressive criteria? You misread my post. I’m in favour of \*loosening \*the law, making it _less_ oppressive (rather poisonous choice of words there). Flexible working for all religious persuasions and none. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-face-veil-niqab-be-banned-for-muslim-women-in-a-public-role/669292.md?page=7)