# Should a kid be allowed counsel when in the Principal's office? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2015, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798 "2015-02-04T12:35:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/21 "2015-02-04T18:03:07Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I don’t think the right to counsel attaches. Nor can the principal physically restrain the student. If my kid didn’t like how things were going down in the office, I hope she’d just say “I’m sorry, but I’m leaving now, if you have anything else to talk about, please give my parents a call.” If a kid said that, I wouldn’t blame a principal who replied with “please go home and consider yourself suspended until this matter is resolved”. I mean, if you get sent to the principal’s office, saying “I’m leaving now” aren’t magic words to get you back into class and I’d think you should see more disciplinary action since you’re undermining their authority. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/22 "2015-02-04T18:04:55Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > If you have so little faith in your son’s principal that you think you need to be there, or that your son needs an attorney, I think you’ve got your kid in the wrong school. Unless you’re rich enough to shop around for private schools (or buy a new home in a different school district) every time the principal, teacher, superintendent, school board or janitor oversteps their bounds, there is no other choice. You might as well say “If you don’t trust your local police, you’ve got the wrong police force”. Well, no shit. That doesn’t help solve the problem though, it only restates it. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/23 "2015-02-04T18:05:06Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > If a kid said that, I wouldn’t blame a principal who replied with “please go home and consider yourself suspended until this matter is resolved”. I mean, if you get sent to the principal’s office, saying “I’m leaving now” aren’t magic words to get you back into class and I’d think you should see more disciplinary action since you’re undermining their authority. I’m fine with that. Not for the everyday meet and greet, but if the principal is out of line, there;s no reason to hang around. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/24 "2015-02-04T18:27:04Z")
Since the principal or school people don’t have the power of prosecution and jail, there’s no need for counsel. Might be nice to have it though but I wouldn’t make it a law or even a rule ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/25 "2015-02-04T18:27:09Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I don’t think the right to counsel attaches. Nor can the principal physically restrain the student. If my kid didn’t like how things were going down in the office, I hope she’d just say “I’m sorry, but I’m leaving now, if you have anything else to talk about, please give my parents a call.” Leaving for where? Back to class? Wander the halls? Out of the building? None of those are workable options due to various legalities and realities of running a public school. If I had a student make such an statement, s/he would not only be politely informed that s/he was suspended until the situation was resolved, but that s/he would have to take a seat in the front office until a parent or guardian arrived to take hir home. We’re responsible for these kids and they don’t just get to announce “I’m leaving” and make it so… ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/26 "2015-02-04T18:46:16Z")
I’d imagine the principal must get weary of this whole “being the school judge” thing, too, after a while. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/27 "2015-02-04T18:55:05Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > If you have so little faith in your son’s principal that you think you need to be there, or that your son needs an attorney, I think you’ve got your kid in the wrong school. Yeah, because God knows some jumped up gym teacher knows what’s best for my child. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/28 "2015-02-04T19:01:33Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Yeah, because God knows some jumped up gym teacher knows what’s best for my child. You should definitely home school. No question about it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/29 "2015-02-04T20:06:58Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You should definitely home school. No question about it. Seriously. The idea that teachers don’t know what’s best for your child during the time they’re in class is certainly possible–but the entire basis for public schooling is the idea that teachers can indeed know what’s best for your child in certain specific ways, including how best to keep their behavior in control during school hours. If your child is so freakish that nobody but you can figure out what’s best for them, then homeschooling is the only reasonable option. I had an incident today that illustrates the peril of an attorney. A boy came to me to report on himself: he was messing around in the bathroom. I thanked him for his honesty and gave him my “don’t be a jerk” speech, and we were done. Then another teacher came to me to tell me that the first boy was messing around, as was another kid (let’s call him Lars). Lars told me that no, he wasn’t messing around, it was a third boy, Mike, who was messing around. He swore up and down that he wasn’t. So I went back to the teacher, who verified that yes, he’d seen the misbehavior, made eye contact with Lars, and Lars not only knew he was misbehaving, but knew he’d been caught at it. I checked with another student who’d been in the bathroom, who confirmed that Lars had been messing around. Lars, confronted with the evidence, threw a fit, started shouting about how everyone was out to get him, that I was so unfair, that nobody believed him, blah blah blah. I had him on silent lunch, where I talked at him a great deal, including some talk about how lying to get out of trouble could only go so far, and that when you were caught, further lies only serve to dig you into deeper trouble. At last, he finally admitted to what he’d done. (And before you say it, no, this isn’t a coerced confession; he then explained why he’d lied, and why he’d misbehaved; it was clearly a decision to abandon a failed strategy). And we moved forward with appropriate consequences for the misbehavior and planning how to act next time. Now imagine inserting an attorney into this process. And imagine that your kid isn’t the one misbehaving in the bathroom, but is in the same class and has to deal with misbehavior. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/30 "2015-02-04T21:20:24Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Let’s say your kid gets summoned to the principals office and while they are there, are accused of some crime (ex. stealing, making threats, drugs). The principal or others start asking questions. > > Is that kid required to say anything? Do they have the right to request a parents involvement? No. The principal is not a law enforcement officer. I suppose at worst he could give you detention or suspension or put something in your “permanent record”. But other than that, he would need to contact the police to deal with any legal issues. And of course, as soon as the police are called, Miranda goes into effect. [More so in the case of a minor, according to the entry on Findlaw.com](http://criminal.findlaw.com/juvenile-justice/police-questioning-of-minors.html) Now maybe another question is how admissible is the principal’s testimony in court? Wouldn’t that be inadmissible as “hearsay”? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/31 "2015-02-04T21:21:27Z")
Testimony about what? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/32 "2015-02-04T21:36:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Testimony about what? Principal’s testimony that Lars admitted to the principal that he caused several thousands in property damage to the restroom facilities, say? or that Mike admitted he hit Timmy upside the head with a baseball bat? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/33 "2015-02-04T21:39:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Testimony about what? Fair question. Joe reports that his iPad is missing. A teacher suspects that Bill took it and calls Bill back to the classroom. Bill runs away down the hall, but eventually is stopped by another teacher. Bill’s teacher gets Bill to open his bookbag, where, sure enough, there’s Joe’s iPad. Bill’s teacher writes an office referral detailing the whole event. The principal, whether wisely or unwisely, calls the police to report a theft. If the police press charges, how admissible is the principal’s testimony? Does it change if Bill admitted to the principal what happened? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/34 "2015-02-04T21:59:09Z")
I would advise my child to say nothing until I arrive. If my child did something wrong, then I will tell the principal and have him duly punished. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/35 "2015-02-04T23:14:40Z")
[QUOTE=slash2k] Principal’s testimony that Lars admitted to the principal that he caused several thousands in property damage to the restroom facilities, say? or that Mike admitted he hit Timmy upside the head with a baseball bat? [/QUOTE] The hearsay rule does not bar what are called _statements against penal interest_ (or just statements against interest in civil cases). Basically, if you admit you did something, that admission is later admissible against you even though it is hearsay. There’s also a similar and less complicated exception for _statements of party opponents_, which (not wanting to get too technical) would also work here. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Fair question. Joe reports that his iPad is missing. A teacher suspects that Bill took it and calls Bill back to the classroom. Bill runs away down the hall, but eventually is stopped by another teacher. Bill’s teacher gets Bill to open his bookbag, where, sure enough, there’s Joe’s iPad. Bill’s teacher writes an office referral detailing the whole event. > > The principal, whether wisely or unwisely, calls the police to report a theft. If the police press charges, how admissible is the principal’s testimony? Does it change if Bill admitted to the principal what happened? The principal’s testimony about his own observations are perfectly admissible, at least under the hearsay rule. His testimony about finding the iPad in Bill’s bag is not barred by the Fifth Amendment, either. School officials do not need warrants to search students’ persons, much less their lockers or backpacks. They basically just need reasonable suspicion (the same standard required for a law enforcement officer to detain - though not arrest - an adult.) > [@](#): > > …the legality of a search of a student should depend simply on the reasonableness, under all the circumstances, of the search. Determining the reasonableness of any search involves a twofold inquiry: first, one must consider “whether the . . . action was justified at its inception,” _Terry v. Ohio_, 392 U.S., at 20; second, one must determine whether the search as actually conducted “was reasonably related in scope to the circumstances which justified the interference in the first place,” _ibid_. Under ordinary circumstances, a search of a student by a teacher or other school official “justified at its inception” when there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the search will turn up evidence that the student has violated or is violating either the law or the rules of the school. Such a search will be permissible in its scope when the measures adopted are reasonably related to the objectives of the search and not excessively intrusive in light of the age and sex of the student and the nature of the infraction. > > N.J. v. T. L. O., 469 U.S. 325, 341-42, 105 S.Ct. 733, 742-43 (1985). ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/36 "2015-02-05T00:26:58Z")
I was called to the principal’s office only once in my high school career, way back when I was a freshman in October of 1944. The call was over the PA system, and I didn’t have the slightest idea of what my transgression might nave been. Anyway, when I arrived at the office, full of trepidation, the principal informed me that my father had just called and had two tickets to the Cardinal - Browns World Series game that afternoon, and would pick me up in a few minutes to go over to Sportsman’s Park for the game. This was in Southern Illinois, and a World Series game was considered about the best excuse there was for getting out the school. talk about a thrill - I still have vivid memories of that one. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/37 "2015-02-05T03:01:16Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You should definitely home school. No question about it. You’d be hard put to find someone who shouldn’t. In a study in one state they found that 41.2% of all high school principals were physical education majors, and that 39.6% of all superintendents were as well. 38% were in fact, gym teachers, 49% coaches, and 34% athletic directors. That adds up to more than 100% because many held more than one of these positions. Imagine that, both gym teacher _and_ coach. Quite the renaissance man, your typical principal. Yes, someone who majored in jumping jacks surely has much to teach us. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/38 "2015-02-05T03:19:41Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > You’d be hard put to find someone who shouldn’t. In a study in one state they found that 41.2% of all high school principals were physical education majors, and that 39.6% of all superintendents were as well. 38% were in fact, gym teachers, 49% coaches, and 34% athletic directors. That adds up to more than 100% because many held more than one of these positions. Imagine that, both gym teacher _and_ coach. Quite the renaissance man, your typical principal. Yes, someone who majored in jumping jacks surely has much to teach us. You do know that principals and superintendents don’t actually teach the students, right? The principal oversees the school, dealing with (problem)\* students just happens to be one of their duties, and they’re not teaching them, they’re disciplining them when the teacher can’t handle it, so they can continue to go on teaching the students instead of spending 20 minutes dealing with one student. What would you suggest happen in those cases? The super oversees the entire district. I don’t think the super would have any interaction with the student at all unless, maybe (I’m not sure), they were discussing expulsion. As far as you’re numbers, as you said, many held both positions. I wouldn’t be surprised if they either retired from PhyEd and moved to Super, then when their term was over took a principal job at one of their schools since everyone knew them (or maybe the other way around). But clearly you look down on gym teachers, you’ve mentioned it twice now. \*I’m not sure if this is common, but in my HS, the VP was the disciplinarian. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/39 "2015-02-05T03:49:17Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > You’d be hard put to find someone who shouldn’t. In a study in one state they found that 41.2% of all high school principals were physical education majors, and that 39.6% of all superintendents were as well. 38% were in fact, gym teachers, 49% coaches, and 34% athletic directors. That adds up to more than 100% because many held more than one of these positions. You know it’s coming: cite? ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798/40 "2015-02-05T04:00:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Seriously. The idea that teachers don’t know what’s best for your child during the time they’re in class is certainly possible–but the entire basis for public schooling is the idea that teachers can indeed know what’s best for your child in certain specific ways, including how best to keep their behavior in control during school hours. If your child is so freakish that nobody but you can figure out what’s best for them, then homeschooling is the only reasonable option. > > I had an incident today that illustrates the peril of an attorney. A boy came to me to report on himself: he was messing around in the bathroom. I thanked him for his honesty and gave him my “don’t be a jerk” speech, and we were done. Then another teacher came to me to tell me that the first boy was messing around, as was another kid (let’s call him Lars). > > Lars told me that no, he wasn’t messing around, it was a third boy, Mike, who was messing around. He swore up and down that he wasn’t. So I went back to the teacher, who verified that yes, he’d seen the misbehavior, made eye contact with Lars, and Lars not only knew he was misbehaving, but knew he’d been caught at it. I checked with another student who’d been in the bathroom, who confirmed that Lars had been messing around. > > Lars, confronted with the evidence, threw a fit, started shouting about how everyone was out to get him, that I was so unfair, that nobody believed him, blah blah blah. I had him on silent lunch, where I talked at him a great deal, including some talk about how lying to get out of trouble could only go so far, and that when you were caught, further lies only serve to dig you into deeper trouble. > > At last, he finally admitted to what he’d done. (And before you say it, no, this isn’t a coerced confession; he then explained why he’d lied, and why he’d misbehaved; it was clearly a decision to abandon a failed strategy). And we moved forward with appropriate consequences for the misbehavior and planning how to act next time. > > Now imagine inserting an attorney into this process. And imagine that your kid isn’t the one misbehaving in the bathroom, but is in the same class and has to deal with misbehavior. Did you stop to think if something was going on at the boy home when he said " Everyone is out to get him ???" I went to school with a boy that felt this , his father was whipping him with his belt all the time. The kid was always getting into trouble b/c he was so full of rage from being beaten all the time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-kid-be-allowed-counsel-when-in-the-principals-office/711798.md?page=3)