# Should a Large General U.S. University Offer Study in Foreign Languages, Linguistics? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 15, 2023, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582 "2023-08-15T00:50:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/61 "2023-08-24T14:21:18Z")
There’s more information about Gordon Gee in his Wikipedia entry: A link to that has already been posted once in this thread, but it wasn’t made clear that the problem with Gee isn’t just one incident. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/62 "2023-08-24T16:48:11Z")
Gee was president of WVU when I went there in the early 1980s, but left to take a better-paying job as president of Ohio State. Someone wrote a parody of the Madonna song: “…:we are living in the material world, and I am a material Gee”. I guess they’d forgotten about it when they hired him back 10 years later. WVU’s problems are rooted in the demographics trends noted upthread, primarily declining target population nationally. But Gee was spectacularly lousy at planning, forging ahead with his plans to grow the enrollment from 30,000 to 40,000 (it’s now around 24,000). When asked about the _declining_ enrollment, he misled and outright lied. In the proposed budget-cutting plan, they are considering ending the program I graduated from (Bachelor’s of Science Electrical Engineering), but interestingly, are not planning on ending the Associate’s degree in EE program (which didn’t exist when I went there). If these kinds of cuts continue (e.g., ending the graduate math program) they may seriously damage the school’s research mission and turn it into a glorified, overpriced votech school. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/63 "2023-12-03T22:09:36Z")
> **[What Happens When a Poor State Guts Its Public University](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/12/class-war-west-virignia-university/676152/)** > > Do West Virginia kids of modest means deserve the humanities? ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/64 "2023-12-05T01:04:59Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Have there been any US Presidents who can speak anything other than English; and more importantly, used it in talks with other world leaders? There was one US president whose mother tongue was not English. Van Buren’s was Dutch. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Kennedys spoke French. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/65 "2023-12-05T02:00:05Z")
George Romney, who sought but didn’t win the 1968 Republican Presidential nomination, was born in Mexico (of American parents). He didn’t visit the U.S. until he was 6 (I think). I would guess he grew up speaking both English and Spanish. Many American Presidents were fluent in other languages: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_multilingual\_presidents\_of\_the\_United\_States#Table](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multilingual_presidents_of_the_United_States#Table) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/66 "2023-12-05T02:28:13Z")
That’s an interesting chart. I’m not sure I believe the claims of fluency in Greek and Latin—reading fluently, sure, and perhaps writing, but spoken? The table distinguishes Jefferson’s reading of Greek from Madison’s. It’s also interesting to note that no president since Roosevelt was fluent in a second language. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/67 "2023-12-05T03:04:17Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > That’s an interesting chart. I’m not sure I believe the claims of fluency in Greek and Latin—reading fluently, sure, and perhaps writing, but spoken? If you can read it, you should be able to speak it. I have read that people from past centuries who had an advanced Catholic education could speak Latin to one another if that was their only common language. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/68 "2023-12-05T03:37:14Z")
Speaking Latin? Absolutely it was part of the “classical” education of the period. It would be expected of them, as it would for any well educated landowning man of that period. Greek to a lesser degree but also not surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/69 "2023-12-05T03:38:20Z")
That is not true. I read Latin just fine, but I don’t speak it with anything like fluency. I just put on [https://www.vaticannews.va/en/podcast/vatican-radio-news-in-latin.html](https://www.vaticannews.va/en/podcast/vatican-radio-news-in-latin.html) to see how much I understood, and I get most of the words, but can’t really understand it, but the equivalent in Italian would be clear to me. In times past, there was more of an emphasis on being able to speak the language; some Latinists do also speak it, but most don’t. I assume it’s the same for Greek. (Edit—if you go a little farther back, to the 16th century or earlier when education itself was conducted in Latin, of course they could speak it and communicate with strangers in it.) ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/70 "2023-12-05T05:18:09Z")
By the sixteenth century, Latin (and even more so, Greek) had begun to cease to be the languages that academic works were conducted in. In the eighteenth century, it appeared that French would become the language of academia. But in the nineteenth century, it became clear that German was the language of academia. From the mid-nineteenth century to the early twentieth century, Germany was what the largest group of academic studies were written in. Then in the mid-twentieth century, English became the top language for academic studies, and that remains true today. This is mostly why it’s become less common to study other languages at colleges in the U.S… ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/71 "2023-12-05T05:29:29Z")
In my father’s time most PhDs required proficiency in a language regardless of the field. Most engineers took German so they’d be able to read more of the research. My Dad took German because he already spoke Yiddish so it was the easiest ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/72 "2023-12-05T05:38:12Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Germany was Aaaaahhhhh! German was ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/73 "2023-12-05T06:10:55Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > [What Happens When a Poor State Guts Its Public University - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/12/class-war-west-virignia-university/676152/) Would it be possible to gift this article? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/74 "2023-12-05T13:02:41Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Would it be possible to gift this article? > **[Gift Article: What Happens When a Poor State Guts Its Public University](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/12/class-war-west-virignia-university/676152/?gift=JorvBomKLUf--My4h_Jsq7lqsy1vMUhM3XwY7PzsJdI&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)** > > Do West Virginia kids of modest means deserve the humanities? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/75 "2023-12-05T15:23:51Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > they may seriously damage the school’s research mission and turn it into a glorified, overpriced votech school. Which is how some of our current “leaders” look upon postsec education in general. They believe that what they need is just specialized technicians to do necessary work. As in, don’t need to appreciate literature or understand philosophy to code, to design bridges or fix a broken limb. The occasional “visionary genius” will just be able to arise on his own, uncontaminated by alien experiences unrelated to “real world issues”. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/76 "2023-12-05T18:23:01Z")
Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/77 "2023-12-05T18:46:47Z")
Thank you for gifting the article. I enjoyed reading it, although it gave me great pause as my state land grant R1 university is beginning to experience that same parsimony from our short-sighted politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/78 "2023-12-05T19:44:38Z")
Smaller universities should offer major languages. Large universities some less common ones that enough people wish to study. I don’t have a problem with smaller universities not exploring every sub specialty. But students should certainly be encouraged to take a second language and enough other humanities course to give them some appreciation of history, social sciences, etc. Sone of these things can be learned well outside the university setting, and my previous points still generally apply. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > - A university is a business and has the right to discontinue courses with low enrolment or of little interest. > - A university is a place of learning and expected to foster academic knowledge and research and transmit these benefits to students. > - Languages are useful. In theory they use unique parts of the brain, reducing things like Alzheimer’s later on. In practice, they can much improve travel and cultural appreciation and have tangible benefits in business and relationships. > - Accordingly, having high school students learn a second language is a good idea. It is a good way to learn more about English too. At this level, the costs of language education are basically the teacher and sunk costs like a room. Is university that different? > - No university teaches every language. It makes sense to emphasize ones more commonly used and which people want to learn. > - Universities are not the best place to learn active languages. Travel is. Resources to better learn fundamentals are commonplace. Universities have experienced teachers, language labs, more research and enough volume and interest to offer conversation classes so still may have some modest advantages. But it is hard to believe linguistics is a major cost for universities. > - The broader theme of humanities differs. Certainly they enrich any other degree. STEM may be more applicable to an average student thinking mainly of employment options. Certainly general humanities are very useful and important. Subspecialization might depend on a universities mission, focus, student body and what they study, reputation, research and marketing. “A well rounded education” still has value but individual time and resources are limited. Philosophy may be less relevant to students now then previously, science more so. > - I can’t comment on this specific university. Administration should be a smaller component of university life and standards are important. But so is exposure to a broad variety of ideas even for students majoring in science. Universities must ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/79 "2023-12-05T19:47:37Z")
I could see a situation where there is little demand from students to study (say) Old Norse. I don’t think every language also requires being able to major in that if demand is non-existent. But graduate math? Environmental science? No wonder the faculty was unhappy. Universities still have a public mission. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582/80 "2023-12-05T20:03:48Z")
The best place to study Flavoovian is in Flavoovia, not Weat Virginia. To study Old Norse, better travel as well as to go back in time a millennium. It sounds like West Virginia is also trying to go back in time, but I am not sure how far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-large-general-u-s-university-offer-study-in-foreign-languages-linguistics/988582.md?page=5)