# Should a parent's reluctance to donate an organ to one's ill child be reason to lose custody? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856 "2010-08-10T18:42:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/21 "2010-08-10T20:45:34Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > In the scenario given, I don’t see where moving to the other household would be particularly destabilizing. By all evidence given, both parents are heavily involved in the child’s life. Certainly a relocation is far less destabilizing than the _death_ of either parent (!), or any serious medical complications for anyone involved. Coping with the death of a parent would be easier if you kept your home, school and friends, and made far more difficult if you lost those as well. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/22 "2010-08-10T20:49:05Z")
Do they ever ask the child what it wants? I remember when I was adopted, the judge asked me who I wanted to stay with. It certainly wasn’t the only thing that factored into the decision but I know the judge wanted me answer. As to the OP, no, I don’t think on the face of it this shoudl be considered a valid reason to lose custody. It may be a valid reason to contest custody; Chris thinks he is doing the right thing, but if Pat is a perfectly good parent except for this, well, all parents fuck up sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/23 "2010-08-10T21:43:58Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Do they ever ask the child what it wants? ‘Which of your parents do you want to die?’ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/24 "2010-08-10T21:51:15Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Coping with the death of a parent would be easier if you kept your home, school and friends, and made far more difficult if you lost those as well. Indeed, but there’s no evidence that the kid would lose any of those. The parents work at the same place, so they can’t live too far apart. They _might_ be in the same school district. The kid certainly has a room at each home already. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/25 "2010-08-10T23:01:24Z")
even a partial liver transplant is not 100% safe, there is a chance of death, or prolonged infirmity resulting from the procedure. It is better to keep the custodial arrangements steady, especially when dealing with a critically ill child. In addition to that, have you ever had major abdominal surgery? I have, there can be several months of recouperation required. How is the custodial parent going to care for the critically ill child when they themself are bedridden? How about after the initial recovery period, there can still be months when you are unable to lift and carry and be very active - how do you still manage to care for a critically ill child when you are unable to do even light housework? My doc did not want me driving my car for a month after my very simple and minimally invasive da vinci hysterectomy … imagine how long it is after being gutted like a fish to remove part of a liver? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/26 "2010-08-10T23:04:01Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > > [@scifisam2009](#): > > > > Coping with the death of a parent would be easier if you kept your home, school and friends, and made far more difficult if you lost those as well. > > Indeed, but there’s no evidence that the kid would lose any of those. The parents work at the same place, so they can’t live too far apart. They _might_ be in the same school district. The kid certainly has a room at each home already. They don’t work in the same office, however. If they loved close by each other then it’d be extremely unusual to have the kid spend every weekend and all the school vacations at the non-custodial parent’s place - that’s what happens when parents live a long way apart and have an amicable split. If they live close by, the custodial parent has the kid for some part of the holidays, usually some weekends too, and the child (depending on age) goes to the non-custodial parent’s place some weekdays. Basically, either the parents live a long way apart _or_ the kid doesn’t actually have that custody arrangement - it simply doesn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/27 "2010-08-10T23:11:57Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > even a partial liver transplant is not 100% safe, there is a chance of death, or prolonged infirmity resulting from the procedure. > > It is better to keep the custodial arrangements steady, especially when dealing with a critically ill child. > > In addition to that, have you ever had major abdominal surgery? I have, there can be several months of recouperation required. How is the custodial parent going to care for the critically ill child when they themself are bedridden? How about after the initial recovery period, there can still be months when you are unable to lift and carry and be very active - how do you still manage to care for a critically ill child when you are unable to do even light housework? My doc did not want me driving my car for a month after my very simple and minimally invasive da vinci hysterectomy .. imagine how long it is after being gutted like a fish to remove part of a liver? Since Chris keeps Sean all summer long, it seems likely that he could take care of Sean if Pat were incapacitated after surgery. Someone else commented on how far away the two live. It must be the same metro area, since Sean stays with Chris every weekend and this is not Star Trek. Chris & Pat must live fairly close to another another, since Sean stays with Chris on weekends. The arrangement I described is basically what my little sister and her ex husband have with my favorite niece, and they live in the same city. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/28 "2010-08-10T23:19:52Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Well, Chris has a colorable argument- but it’s not a slam-dunk, and I don’t think it should be determinative. In determining custody, Americans courts apply a “best interests of the child” standard (I don’t know of any state that doesn’t, anyway). Certainly the parent’s degree of committment to the child is a factor here. However: > > 1.) As much as we might laud such a thing, I suspect most courts would be reluctant to insist that the custodial parent must be willing to lay down his/her life for the child, and > > 2.) In this case, Pat has a reasonable. not-entirely-selfish reason for hesitating, and has still expressed a willingness to donate if necessary. Given that Pat’s conduct here is well within the range of “reasonable”, and further that this particular crisis is unlikely to recur, I can’t imagine a judge weighing it very heavily. Which brings up the last point - > > 3.) There are a _lot_ of factors that go into the “best interests of the child” analysis, not least of which is the child’s interest in a stable home environment. The burden is going to be on Chris to demonstrate that the current custody arrangement isn’t in the kid’s best interests - absent some showing that Pat is failing to provide for the kid’s current physical, emotional, or educational needs, that seems unlikely. > > I don’t practice family law, I certainly don’t practice it in your jurisdiction, and I’m absolutely not now, nor will I ever be, your lawyer - but I’d be very surprised if Pat ended up losing custody absent facts not in the record. Of course, I imagine the court might look more sympathetically on a request from Chris to tweak visitation or other marginal issues - but the same “best interests of the child” standard controls here as well. In my jurisdiction, what you say is true, but is applied in an initial custody determination. Here, the initial determination has already been made. We’re talking about a modification of custody. In my state, the standard for modification is “a material change in circumstances adverse to the best interest of the child.”. Usually, that means something has changed in the custodial household since the date of the last order.–ie, momma has become a crackwhore, Daddy got caught with enough crystal meth to turn on everybody in a tri-county area, custodial parent no longer able to provide proper care…something like that. Best interest of the child still applies, just under another layer of material change in circumstances adverse, etc. On the facts given, I don’t think Chris can prove a material change in circumstances adverse to the best interests of the child. The illness is not Pat’s fault. Pat’s cowardice is indicative that Pat is pond scum and oughta be horsewhipped on the courthouse steps, but probably not grounds for a modification…unless it can be shown that the cowardice was so disgusting to the child that the child now has a deep seated antipathy toward Pat. That would probably take lots of litigation and psych evals and such. Very Spendy. And Pat is full of shit. If Pat does the right thing, and donates because that’s the best match, but dies on the table, Chris automatically gets custody against any third party, unless Chris can be shown to have abandoned the child, severely abused/neglected the child, or to be otherwise unfit. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/29 "2010-08-10T23:27:24Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > [Chris & Pat must live fairly close to another another, since Sean stays with Chris on weekends. The arrangement I described is basically what my little sister and her ex husband have with my favorite niece, and they live in the same city. So your sister never has your niece at the weekend or in the holidays? Man, that is probably the shittiest possible arrangement for your sister - she gets all of the hard work and none of the fun. The kid’s Dad would also have pretty much no social life. Or does your neice actually stay at her Mom’s some weekends and in the holidays? Getting to a place to spend the weekends does not imply that Chris lives close enough for the kid to go to the same school. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/30 "2010-08-10T23:32:37Z")
Going from weekends and holidays to every week is a big change for most children. I thnk Chris has a right to think Pat is a weasel and to not buy her explanation. But absent other disparities, thats not enough to change things drastically and going for custody can be more about his beef with her rather than whats best for the child. Some information of the level of difference might matter too? As in if it goes from a 95% chance of success to a 80%, thats quadrupling the chance the child might die, even though both are a high chance of success. Alternately, going from 55 to 50 wouldnt be much practical difference. Also is there any custody dispute history, ie is Pat having to worry about him arguing for custody on the basis of her potentially being laid up from a liver operation or the like? Otara ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/31 "2010-08-10T23:33:22Z")
Pat’s excuse for leaving the matter to Chris is not very convincing. The downside for going with Chris as donor. Chris might die. Sean is more likely to die. The downside for going with Pat as donor Pat might die Chris gets custody There is no personal sacrifice going on for Pat in the chosen option. It seems to me that I know how the wise Solomon would rule on this. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/32 "2010-08-10T23:35:16Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > [Chris & Pat must live fairly close to another another, since Sean stays with Chris on weekends. The arrangement I described is basically what my little sister and her ex husband have with my favorite niece, and they live in the same city. > > So your sister never has your niece at the weekend or in the holidays? Man, that is probably the shittiest possible arrangement for your sister - she gets all of the hard work and none of the fun. The kid’s Dad would also have pretty much no social life. Or does your neice actually stay at her Mom’s some weekends and in the holidays? > > Getting to a place to spend the weekends does not imply that Chris lives close enough for the kid to go to the same school. I said ALTERNATING holidays. I’m not sure of the weekend arrangement. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/33 "2010-08-11T01:18:27Z")
I voted “Need more information…” I think Chris has a point, and Pat failed to act in the child’s best interest, based on the doctor’s recommendation. But I am not satisfied that this is sufficient reason to rule Pat an unsatisfactory custodial parent. Part of understanding this question would be finding out what the child’s chances of survival were anticipated to be, in the case of each parent donating. Also part would be how much better a custodial parent each would be in all the other ways that matter. Besides, it sounds treacherous. I suspect Chris of plotting to use this against Pat, and think that if this were the case, Chris should have aired the supposed objection back when the decision was being made. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/34 "2010-08-11T01:25:55Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I voted “Need more information…” > > I think Chris has a point, and Pat failed to act in the child’s best interest, based on the doctor’s recommendation. But I am not satisfied that this is sufficient reason to rule Pat an unsatisfactory custodial parent. > > Part of understanding this question would be finding out what the child’s chances of survival were anticipated to be, in the case of each parent donating. Also part would be how much better a custodial parent each would be in all the other ways that matter. > > Besides, it sounds treacherous. I suspect Chris of plotting to use this against Pat, and think that if this were the case, Chris should have aired the supposed objection back when the decision was being made. If I were Chris, I wouldn’t have aired any objection at the time the decision was made, merely because I would have been so furious at Pat I would have been fighting the impulse to commit assault. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/35 "2010-08-11T02:48:01Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > In my jurisdiction, what you say is true, but is applied in an initial custody determination. Here, the initial determination has already been made. We’re talking about a modification of custody. In my state, the standard for modification is “a material change in circumstances adverse to the best interest of the child.”. Usually, that means something has changed in the custodial household since the date of the last order.–ie, momma has become a crackwhore, Daddy got caught with enough crystal meth to turn on everybody in a tri-county area, custodial parent no longer able to provide proper care…something like that. Best interest of the child still applies, just under another layer of material change in circumstances adverse, etc. > > On the facts given, I don’t think Chris can prove a material change in circumstances adverse to the best interests of the child. The illness is not Pat’s fault. Pat’s cowardice is indicative that Pat is pond scum and oughta be horsewhipped on the courthouse steps, but probably not grounds for a modification…unless it can be shown that the cowardice was so disgusting to the child that the child now has a deep seated antipathy toward Pat. That would probably take lots of litigation and psych evals and such. Very Spendy. > > And Pat is full of shit. If Pat does the right thing, and donates because that’s the best match, but dies on the table, Chris automatically gets custody against any third party, unless Chris can be shown to have abandoned the child, severely abused/neglected the child, or to be otherwise unfit. D’oh! You’re right, **Oak** - I’m pretty sure that the “material change” standard would be applied in my jurisdiction as well. And in most others - my bar review class, rightly or wrongly, claimed that there’s very little variation in child custody law from state to state. (Everything I know about family law, I learned from BarBri … isn’t that unsettling?) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/36 "2010-08-11T09:28:03Z")
Absolutely not, because Chris went along with it. He therefore agreed with the decision and has no right to then try to punish Pat for a decision they both made. Had he tried to convince Pat otherwise, he might have a case. But there’s nothing wrong with Pat not wanting to do it, and trying use logic to persuade him. That’s what normal people do. Chris is being just as selfish as Pat–but at least Pat didn’t do it passive aggressively. Thus option 2 is the closest, albeit the soundness of Pat’s argument is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/37 "2010-08-11T09:33:31Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Napier](#): > > > > I voted “Need more information…” > > > > I think Chris has a point, and Pat failed to act in the child’s best interest, based on the doctor’s recommendation. But I am not satisfied that this is sufficient reason to rule Pat an unsatisfactory custodial parent. > > > > Part of understanding this question would be finding out what the child’s chances of survival were anticipated to be, in the case of each parent donating. Also part would be how much better a custodial parent each would be in all the other ways that matter. > > > > Besides, it sounds treacherous. I suspect Chris of plotting to use this against Pat, and think that if this were the case, Chris should have aired the supposed objection back when the decision was being made. > > If I were Chris, I wouldn’t have aired any objection at the time the decision was made, merely because I would have been so furious at Pat I would have been fighting the impulse to commit assault. That’s your own personal failing. If you can get so mad that merely responding to the guy would make you lose control and physically hurt himm, then I wouldn’t think you should ever have custody. What happens when the kid eventually makes you that mad? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/38 "2010-08-11T13:21:12Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > > [@Anaamika](#): > > > > Do they ever ask the child what it wants? > > ‘Which of your parents do you want to die?’ 😃 I know you jest, but of course I meant “Which parent do you want to stay with?” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/39 "2010-08-11T13:37:34Z")
Chris’ argument would have some merit if stated _before_ the fact. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856/40 "2010-08-11T13:56:41Z")
I sure wish the OP had used names other than the unisex names Chris and Pat. The OP read like some cross between the SNL Pat skit and “Who’s on first?”. I had to work at it to keep it straight who was who. I guess it was to avoid a sex bias or allow for “modern” families. Oh and the kids name should have been moon unit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-parents-reluctance-to-donate-an-organ-to-ones-ill-child-be-reason-to-lose-custody/549856.md?page=3)