# Should a Rich Speeder Pay More? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311 "2011-10-21T00:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/41 "2011-10-21T02:54:25Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > When you are poor it is worse. If you get a speeding ticket and can not come up with the 150 bucks, they will revoke your license. Then, if you get pulled over while driving to work, you can be arrested due to a warrant . Now you have real trouble. You will lose your license and perhaps get jail time. The cost goes up . I wonder how many poor people are in jail caused by not being able to afford a fine? > Are the rich and poor treated the same? The impact is not the same. The results are surely different. A fine should be allowed to be paid in installments, according to one’s financial situation. The first offense is a fine and a warning that the next offense will result in suspension of license. Rich or poor, if you can’t stop yourself from excessive speeding even though you are fully aware of the consequences, you shouldn’t be driving. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/42 "2011-10-21T03:02:28Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > If we began progressively fining speeding tickets based on the wealth of the offender, wouldn’t that necessitate similar action for _all_ fine-based infractions? The argument would be the same no matter what the individual violation was, like running a red light or not wearing a seat belt, etc. > > This seems like absolute bureaucratic lunacy to me. It would be tough, but everyone files, or at least should file, tax returns. That gives you an income to work off of. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/43 "2011-10-21T03:06:34Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > This is discrimnation in its purest, finest, most blatant form. That’s funny, I would have thought Jim Crow was discrimnation in its purest, finest, most blatant form. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/44 "2011-10-21T03:08:15Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Now, from a practical perspective, this is a terrible fucking idea. In practice, it will result in revenue-minded police focusing on issuing tickets to drivers of expensive cars, and potentially ignoring violations by drivers of old piece-of-shit cars. I don’t care if it works just dandy in Sweden or wherever, that’s what would happen here. This isn’t a problem if ticket revenues don’t directly affect the funding of the issuing agency, which isn’t a bad idea regardless. This is already the way it works in many jurisdictions, I’d guess including most of those with variable fines. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/45 "2011-10-21T03:08:24Z")
I think that drunk drivers who kill people should be punished according to how much money the victim had. Someone who is poor had a lot less to lose by dying than a rich person. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/46 "2011-10-21T03:19:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If rich criminals should be given larger fines, should young criminals be given longer jail sentences? As it is, an 18 year old being sent up for armed robbery is going to spend a much smaller percentage of his remaining life span behind bars than an 80 year old committing the same crime. Well it be fair if that 80 would have some respect for the system and stay alive for his entire sentence. I think your heading into a different argument entirely On the fines thing, yes with flat fines the wealthy suffer less for their fines. Fines are not however the only deterrent to speeding. Multiple offenses do have other consequences. We could go down this chain of logic forever though because a rich person losing their license suffers less because they have the means to pay someone to drive for them. There are benefits to being rich. I’m OK with that so long as those benefits aren’t trampling over the rest of us. If we go to a fine based system for running people over then I’m definitely going to argue for a progressive structure. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/47 "2011-10-21T03:56:18Z")
I guess the first thing Id want to see is if there is a significant issue with richer people being more likely to speed because the fines dont matter. Secondly Id want to see if fines matched to income are more effective than say points based systems heading towards loss of license and other penalties eg community service, jail etc. Id also wonder if increases in fines led to more people fighting it in court to drag out outcomes, increases in casual bribery, people trying to make a run for it, etc. Ie my concerns would be mostly pragmatic, and based on looking at outcomes, with a fair amount of doubt it would be as effective as other alternatives. I guess Id also wonder why its only being done for driving alone, it seems kind of inconsistent. Why not parking, littering, or any other offense? Otara ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/48 "2011-10-21T04:25:02Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > A fine should be allowed to be paid in installments, according to one’s financial situation. > > The first offense is a fine and a warning that the next offense will result in suspension of license. > > Rich or poor, if you can’t stop yourself from excessive speeding even though you are fully aware of the consequences, you shouldn’t be driving. Define excessive speeding. Some poor people get pulled over for DWB. Driving while black. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/49 "2011-10-21T04:27:11Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > This isn’t a problem if ticket revenues don’t directly affect the funding of the issuing agency, which isn’t a bad idea regardless. This is already the way it works in many jurisdictions, I’d guess including most of those with variable fines. With so many foreclosures , some towns are trying to make the money up with traffic fines. There are a couple speed trap happy communities in my area. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/50 "2011-10-21T04:32:00Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Define excessive speeding. Some poor people get pulled over for DWB. Driving while black. Well, that’s a question that will divide everyone in to camps. I left it deliberately vague for the reason that it’s a quibble and can be defined by the whatever the “reasonable man” thinks it means in their jurisdiction. Have people been fined for DWB? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/51 "2011-10-21T04:37:34Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Because we would be discrimnating based on moral evils and danger to the community rather than morally neutral factors like race or wealth. I think you are taking a deliberately narrow view of what discrimination means, and how it is practiced. There is ALWAYS going to be discrimination based on arbitrary criteria or morally neutral factors. Some cops may decide to only pull over people doing 11 mph over the speed limit instead of 9. Can you really make an argument that one is much different than the other? Another example is bail. A rich guy with a private jet is far more likely to have a higher bail than a poor person. Why? Because we want to make the bail amount a relatively equal disincentive to not showing up to trial. More generally, money (among other things) is often a factor when you are primarily interested in preventing a behavior. My problem with this plan is that too many municipalities rely on traffic fines for funding, and take steps to protect said funding irrespective of road safety or crime prevention. Alternatively, places like Albuquerque have even flirted with getting rid of red light cameras because they are no longer [revenue makers](http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S2030196.shtml). > [@](#): > > In January, the city changed the yellow lights to last longer at red-light camera intersections because a UNM study suggested it would lower the amount of crashes. That turned out to be true. But now there are less tickets being issued, meaning less revenue for the city. > > City councilor Dan Lewis says the city’s red-light camera fund that pays for the program has about $700,000 left and it’s costing about $100,000 a month to run it. That gives the city seven more months of funding before the mayor would have to start dipping into the city budget to pay for it, a budget that is already facing a $40 million shortfall. There are other places facing the same decision. Since there is plenty of evidence to suggest that traffic fines are less about safety than they are about revenue, I don’t think rules allowing the state (or more often, private contractors) to collect greater revenue under the guise of bleeding the rich are a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/52 "2011-10-21T08:27:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If rich criminals should be given larger fines, should young criminals be given longer jail sentences? As it is, an 18 year old being sent up for armed robbery is going to spend a much smaller percentage of his remaining life span behind bars than an 80 year old committing the same crime. No, because the 5 years at the end of your life is no more valuable than the 5 years at the beginning of your life. But, to a poor person a small fine is worth more than the same fine to a rich person. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/53 "2011-10-21T09:06:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … I rather suspect there will be at least some support for this scheme here. > > Why? Did you somehow miss the last paragraph in the quote in your OP? > [@](#): > > … A $300 fine represents a little over three minutes of earnings for LeBron James, who took home $45.7 million in 2010. But someone earning the minimum wage would have to work a week. “La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues et de voler du pain.” Anatole France _Le Lys Rouge_ CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/54 "2011-10-21T09:34:46Z")
Consider a contrasting variation that I think exists in some places: Some violations, in some places, are punishable by, for example, “$1,000 fine and/or 6 months in jail” Meaning the judge, at his discretion, could impose a fine or jail time or possibly both. If the defendant can’t afford the fine, he may have no choice but to do the time. But a defendant who can afford the fine can pay it and not have to go to jail. This creates the appearance that a wealthier defendant can buy his way out of jail. I saw this used in a case in Hawaii some years ago, which became a _cause celebre_ when it happened in the early 1970’s but had long since fallen off the media radar when the case against the last defendant came to trial in the early 1980’s. A professor was doing research with captive dolphins in Hawaii. Two of his assistants stole the dolphins from the laboratory and dumped them into the ocean. When the last defendant came to trial and was convicted, he argued at sentencing that he couldn’t pay any fine and it was therefore unjust to send him to jail because of that. As far as I know, he never did go to jail or pay any fine. If one defendant can avoid jail by paying a large fine, should another similar defendant have to go to jail because he can’t pay the fine? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/55 "2011-10-21T10:12:23Z")
Cribbed from another message board, so the cites ain’t mine, > [@](#): > > … Roy Brown, 54, of Audrey Lane, pleaded guilty in Caddo District Court to robbing the Capital One bank in December 2007. > > Brown admitted walking up to a teller with one of his hands under his jacket and telling her it was a “stickup.” The teller handed the man three stacks of bills and he took a single $100 bill, told her he was homeless and left, police said. > > Brown surrendered to police the next day, telling them his mother didn’t raise him that way. …[RIGHT][CITE](http://www.ktbs.com/news/23350821/detail.html)[/RIGHT] > [@](#): > > … Paul R. Allen, 55, of Oakton, Va., was sentenced Tuesday … for his role in a $3 billion scheme that officials called one of the biggest corporate frauds in U.S. history. … “I messed up. I messed up big,” Allen told U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema before he was sentenced, apologizing to his family and “the entire financial community. “There was no excuse for my behavior.” > > Allen was chief executive at Ocala, Fla.-based Taylor Bean & Whitaker, which collapsed in 2009 after the criminal investigation became public, resulting in its 2,000 employees losing their jobs. The fraud also contributed to the collapse of Alabama-based Colonial Bank – the sixth largest bank failure in U.S. history – after Colonial bought hundreds of millions of dollars in Taylor Bean mortgages that had already been sold to other investors. > > Two other banks – Deutsche Bank and BNP Paribas – lost nearly $2 billion after buying corporate paper from Taylor Bean that was not properly backed with collateral, authorities said. …[RIGHT][CITE](http://compliancesearch.com/compliancex/jail-sentence/paul-allen-ex-mortgage-ceo-sentenced-to-prison-for-3b-fraud-2/)[/RIGHT] Take a guess who got sentenced to 40 months and who got 15 years? 40 months for Paul Allen, 15 years for Roy Brown. Guess “Scarface” had it right “If you are going to steal, steal steal big and hope like hell you get away with it.” . . . not that it’ll matter all that much if ya don’t.CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/56 "2011-10-21T10:13:56Z")
I don’t see any reason to means-test the fines - because even if you make it proportional to measurable wealth, some people will still consider it good value for money for the ability to exceed the limit. In the UK, we’ve got a two-pronged system - a fine as a penalty for the violation, and a points-based licence endorsement. When you’ve accrued 12 points, you’re no longer allowed to drive. If you accrue a few points, then change your ways, the points eventually tick back to zero after a number of years. Motor insurance premiums take into account licence points too. So (assuming enforcement happens to a uniform, high standard), nobody can get away with persistent offending just because they can afford it. ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/57 "2011-10-21T11:30:18Z")
> [@Qin Shi Huangdi](#): > > This is discrimnation in its purest, finest, most blatant form. No, [THIS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching) is discrimination in it’s purest, finest, most blatant form. Look, I know you’re just a kid, but really, you need to tone down your rhetoric. It’s tedious, and thoroughly irritating. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/58 "2011-10-21T11:36:20Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I don’t see any reason to means-test the fines - because even if you make it proportional to measurable wealth, some people will still consider it good value for money for the ability to exceed the limit. > > In the UK, we’ve got a two-pronged system - a fine as a penalty for the violation, and a points-based licence endorsement. When you’ve accrued 12 points, you’re no longer allowed to drive. If you accrue a few points, then change your ways, the points eventually tick back to zero after a number of years. Motor insurance premiums take into account licence points too. > > So (assuming enforcement happens to a uniform, high standard), nobody can get away with persistent offending just because they can afford it. To someone living paycheck to paycheck a traffic fine can mean a month or two of living off potatoes, or doing without even that sometimes. Is that the same punishment to someone who makes $100,000? If not, why does the poor person deserve the punishment of having food taken right out of their mouth and the rich person doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/59 "2011-10-21T11:36:33Z")
> [@George\_Kaplin](#): > > No, [THIS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching) is discrimination in it’s purest, finest, most blatant form. Look, I know you’re just a kid, but really, you need to tone down your rhetoric. It’s tedious, and thoroughly irritating. Qin’s a kid? Did not know. I remember being a kid on the internet. (Well… on BBSs… 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/60 "2011-10-21T11:59:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am against this system, and I rather suspect there will be at least some support for this scheme here. > > Why? Why not? IOW, a gratuitous assertion may, as you often remind us, be gratuitously denied. As you know by now, the OP in a GD thread is normally expected not only to state a position, but to support it. So how about you do so? :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311.md?page=4)