# Should a Rich Speeder Pay More? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311 "2011-10-21T00:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/61 "2011-10-21T12:30:05Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > To someone living paycheck to paycheck a traffic fine can mean a month or two of living off potatoes, or doing without even that sometimes. Is that the same punishment to someone who makes $100,000? > > If not, why does the poor person deserve the punishment of having food taken right out of their mouth and the rich person doesn’t? If traffic fines were handed out to random road users for no reason, I’d be really sympathetic to this argument. No, it’s not the same punishment, but that’s life. Rich people have lives that are in some ways made easier by money. IMO, the fine should pay for the administration of enforcing traffic - the licence penalty should be the deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/62 "2011-10-21T12:36:34Z")
If taking money from a person is suppose to be a deterrent against driving over a certain speed then yes it has to be that way, actually it should be worded that the fine is $50 million for speeding, but the person’s economic circumstances will be considered so that a person making $50k/y only pays $50 bucks or so. If taking money from a person is suppose to be a way of collecting revenue from people driving, which arguably it is, then again yes it makes sense as people who make more can pay more. I can not think of any honest reason why the same dollar amount fine should be charged as a fine by civil authority without taking into account that person’s economic circumstances and the impact on their livelihood. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/63 "2011-10-21T14:41:42Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Well, that’s a question that will divide everyone in to camps. I left it deliberately vague for the reason that it’s a quibble and can be defined by the whatever the “reasonable man” thinks it means in their jurisdiction. > > Have people been fined for DWB? Pulled over regularly. If he can not pay a ticket price and drives to work, he is more vulnerable than a white person who does the same thing. He is far more likely to get pulled over, especially if he drives through a white community. Trying to get to work so you can make enough money to pay off the fine could result in a much bigger problem. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/64 "2011-10-21T14:51:39Z")
It should be based on how fast they were going, not how much money they make. Should a rich person pay a million dollar fine for going 5 mph above the speed limit? No. By the same token, a poor person probably doesn’t own a supercar that can reach 240 mph (or whatever the fuck that is in kph). The driver should get a massive fine (but probably not hundreds of thousands of dollars) for traveling 85mph in what I assume is probably a 25mph zone because it is incredible reckless, not because they are rich. If they do it enough times, they should have their license taken away. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/65 "2011-10-21T15:04:17Z")
If the point is deterrence, I have absolutely no problem with this. However, since the point of speeding fines is generally not deterrence, it’s kind of dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/66 "2011-10-21T16:03:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As you know by now, the OP in a GD thread is normally expected not only to state a position, but to support it. I am not certain this is normally expected, and I definitely don’t think it should normally be expected. Stating a position and defending it in an OP is one acceptable thing to do in GD. Another acceptable thing to do, IMO, is state a position with an invitation for people to give reasons against it–with the understanding that you’ll come back to reply to those reasons in short order. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/67 "2011-10-21T16:38:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > But if he hedged funds as punishment he’d miss out on fresh country air, accented with the dirty diaper on route 401. > > I think the idea of community service as punishment isn’t as much value returned to society, but respect gained for it. Fair enough, and that of course puts community service in a different class of punishment than paying a fine. Still, we seem to agree that if we’re confiscating somebody’s time as punishment, we should be taking about the same amount of it from everybody. I admit the practical considerations - focus on penalizing high-income people for the higher fine potential, bureaucracy involved etc. - but as a principle, I think it holds up perfectly well. In a Swiss context - organized like (pardon) clockwork, no tradition of corruption in law enforcement, courts with little patience for stupid antics etc. - I can certainly see it being practical as well. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/68 "2011-10-21T16:52:59Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > No, because the 5 years at the end of your life is no more valuable than the 5 years at the beginning of your life. Nonsense. Confinement is clearly a far lesser punishment for someone who can barely get out of bed anyway than it is for a person in the prime of life. The example (of how absurd the basic concept postulated in the OP gets when one tries to actually apply it) stands. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/69 "2011-10-21T17:03:50Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Nonsense. Confinement is clearly a far lesser punishment for someone who can barely get out of bed anyway than it is for a person in the prime of life. I would argue the opposite. A person with the zeal and vigor of youth is more negatively affected by confinement than a person who just wants to lay in bed all day. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/70 "2011-10-21T17:04:08Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Now, from a practical perspective, this is a terrible fucking idea. In practice, it will result in revenue-minded police focusing on issuing tickets to drivers of expensive cars, and potentially ignoring violations by drivers of old piece-of-shit cars. I don’t care if it works just dandy in Sweden or wherever, that’s what would happen here. This, in every way. The police must be absolutely salivating about the prospect here. Hell, busting a guy with the temerity to be driving a Lamborghini for 10 over and staying in the flow of traffic would make most of their budget for a year. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/71 "2011-10-21T17:10:05Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > This, in every way. The police must be absolutely salivating about the prospect here. Hell, busting a guy with the temerity to be driving a Lamborghini for 10 over and staying in the flow of traffic would make most of their budget for a year. So is a speeding ticket supposed to be a deterrent to speeding or not? And if so, is it supposed to be a deterrent, but only for poor people? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/72 "2011-10-21T17:53:24Z")
**mosier** , I think we can largely dispense with the pretense that speeding tickets for any but the most egregious cases are more about deterrence than revenue, can’t we? > [@Frylock](#): > > with the understanding that you’ll come back to reply to those reasons in short order. Something we’re still waiting for here, if you haven’t noticed. This OP is so far just another hit-and-run. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/73 "2011-10-21T18:15:24Z")
I’m against the idea, mostly because of the need to investigate earnings in some fashion (tax filings, worth of the car being driven, whatever). Fines plus eventual license revocation cover both sides pretty well; someone who blows off multiple citations, rich or poor, eventually loses permission to drive, with the implication that the rich can afford to blow off more citations and so eventually get a higher punishment if they insist on being stupid. That I think is sufficiently self-regulating. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/74 "2011-10-21T18:18:23Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > So is a speeding ticket supposed to be a deterrent to speeding or not? And if so, is it supposed to be a deterrent, but only for poor people? I view them as an additional tax on reckless people. Kinda like lottery tickets are an additional tax on people bad at math. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/75 "2011-10-21T18:26:33Z")
When I see a sign saying it is a 15,000 dollar fine for killing a worker, I visualize Warren Buffet pulling up and saying 'here’s 30 k ,I am in a hurry". ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/76 "2011-10-21T19:10:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **mosier** , I think we can largely dispense with the pretense that speeding tickets for any but the most egregious cases are more about deterrence than revenue, can’t we? So it’s a tax, then? If it’s a tax, why shouldn’t it be a progressive one? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/77 "2011-10-21T19:13:36Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > This, in every way. The police must be absolutely salivating about the prospect here. Hell, busting a guy with the temerity to be driving a Lamborghini for 10 over and staying in the flow of traffic would make most of their budget for a year. That sounds like more of an argument against funding police departments with ticket income than an argument against income-based tickets. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/78 "2011-10-21T19:31:51Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > No, because the 5 years at the end of your life is no more valuable than the 5 years at the beginning of your life. But, to a poor person a small fine is worth more than the same fine to a rich person. Five dollars is worth just as much to a rich man as a poor man - it’s not like a rich man can buy more with his five dollars than anyone else. It’s just that he has a whole bunch more five dollars than anyone else. Similarly, a young man and an old man could spend a year of their lives doing the same thing, but a young man has many more years left to him than an old man. By the logic of this thread, a year in jail to a person expecting to have another fifty of them is not as harsh a punishment as a year to a man who only has ten or so left. > [@Airman Doors](#): > > This, in every way. The police must be absolutely salivating about the prospect here. Hell, busting a guy with the temerity to be driving a Lamborghini for 10 over and staying in the flow of traffic would make most of their budget for a year. Judging by the examples in the OP, the fines appear to be linked not just to wealth, but to the degree of reckless driving. The two examples given are driving 85 through a village (which, I’m guessing, has a pretty low posted speed limit) and doing 185 mph on a freeway. It doesn’t appear that the laws in Europe are set up to allow six-figure fines for going ten over the limit, so it seems that should be the model we’re arguing over in this thread. Although presumably, even at low speeds, a rich driver would still pay more, but not to the extent that one collar makes their entire budget for the year. I think your argument still at least partially applies, though - expensive cars would still be targeted more often than cheap beaters, possibly to the over-all detriment of public safety. ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/79 "2011-10-21T19:50:49Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I don’t see any reason to means-test the fines - because even if you make it proportional to measurable wealth, some people will still consider it good value for money for the ability to exceed the limit. > > In the UK, we’ve got a two-pronged system - a fine as a penalty for the violation, and a points-based licence endorsement. When you’ve accrued 12 points, you’re no longer allowed to drive. If you accrue a few points, then change your ways, the points eventually tick back to zero after a number of years. Motor insurance premiums take into account licence points too. > > So (assuming enforcement happens to a uniform, high standard), nobody can get away with persistent offending just because they can afford it. Same in Canada - you get demerit points for traffic violations. This is a fair and equal deterrent, even if the fine isn’t. > [@Mosier](#): > > So it’s a tax, then? If it’s a tax, why shouldn’t it be a progressive one? Well it’s an optional “tax” like other sin taxes - should taxes on cigarettes and alcohol be progressive as well? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/80 "2011-10-21T20:10:14Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Thank you. The question then becomes how to ensure traffic violators are punished equally. Since people don’t have equal amounts of money confiscating a fixed amount is going to result in unequal amounts of punishment. > > However I do like your thinking on community service. However I might suggest one minor tweak. Instead of letting people buy their way out of it. Why not make it the punishment for everyone? > Then Bill Gates and hobo Willie a like suffer the same weekend of picking up highway trash for speeding. No discrimination. But even then, some else could argue that the punishment falls more harshly upon the poor person’s shoulders. Most white-collar jobs work M-F, and the white-collar worker can more easily sustain the mandated weekend’s work. Indeed, if we imagine the assignment cutting into work hours, the wealthy person can afford to miss a day or two of work without serious financial consequences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311.md?page=5)