# Should a Rich Speeder Pay More? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311 "2011-10-21T00:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/101 "2011-10-22T02:21:13Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > What if the person making $100,000 is also living paycheck to paycheck? > > How do you propose we assess what is financially painful to each individual? Or do you assume everyone making $100,000 a year is exactly the same in every way? > > A person making $20,000 a year might be living at home with his parents, using their car and eating their food. His cost of living is zero. If anyone should face a steep fine it’s that guy. > > But a person making $100,000 might be supporting 10 disabled children and caring for two sets of aging parents. Oh and he also adopts wounded puppies and kittens. > > Did I also mention the guy making $100,000 is working on the next big cancer breakthrough? Taking him away from his research for a week could set his research back years! > > Emotional manipulation is fun. I’ll tell you what, if the $100,000 guy can document that he spends all his money on orphans, widows, and kittens or cancer research then I agree the court should consider giving him a break. It’s not emotional manipulation. It’s a fact $200 causes the poor a lot more hurt than the rich. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/102 "2011-10-22T03:37:46Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Not as a punitive deterrent. You know, responding to just the first sentence in my post is pretty meaningless, since the very next sentence implicitly acknowledges just the point you made, and uses that very assumption as the basis of the actual point of the whole post. Want to give it a second try, and see if you can come within spitting distance of addressing what I was saying? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/103 "2011-10-22T03:51:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You know, responding to just the first sentence in my post is pretty meaningless, since the very next sentence implicitly acknowledges just the point you made, and uses that very assumption as the basis of the actual point of the whole post. > > Want to give it a second try, and see if you can come within spitting distance of addressing what I was saying? What sentence is it that acknowledges the point I made? Was the point you were making supposed to be the one about how a year to an old person is worth more than a year to a young person? Because that point has already been raised and dismissed. If you are indeed arguing from the position that fines should be equal for rich and poor people, please answer the following: Do you think speeding fines ought to be treated as a punitive deterrent? If so, do you think a rich person is deterred by a $100 fine less than, more than, or about the same as a poor person is? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/104 "2011-10-22T14:56:07Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I’ll tell you what, if the $100,000 guy can document that he spends all his money on orphans, widows, and kittens or cancer research then I agree the court should consider giving him a break. > > It’s not emotional manipulation. Wrong, that is emotional manipulation. What you are saying is that it’s okay for that person to break the law, that some how the consequences of their actions are different. You fell for the same trick you’re trying to pull on other people. > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > It’s a fact $200 causes the poor a lot more hurt than the rich. No, it’s not a fact, it’s how you view the world. It’s what you do in all these threads. But all of that is besides the point, the poor person still broke the law. Essentially what you’re saying is that it’s okay for the poor to break the law because punishing them isn’t fair. Doesn’t it make you wonder why a person who can’t afford a $200 ticket would risk a speeding ticket? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/105 "2011-10-22T18:11:24Z")
I am against it, but as far as I can tell, it’s no different than a progressive income tax. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/106 "2011-10-22T18:34:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If rich criminals should be given larger fines, should young criminals be given longer jail sentences? As it is, an 18 year old being sent up for armed robbery is going to spend a much smaller percentage of his remaining life span behind bars than an 80 year old committing the same crime. That’s simply not a solid argument. It’s the same amount of their overall life that’s being taken away. It has nothing to do with how much of it they’ve already spent. In any case, the idea, in my opinion, should be that each person feels the same weight of the punishment. I fail to see how this is any different than a progressive income tax. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/107 "2011-10-22T19:11:22Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I am against it, but as far as I can tell, it’s no different than a progressive income tax. Only if you think making money is criminal and should be punished. What the hell? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/108 "2011-10-22T20:40:11Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Only if you think making money is criminal and should be punished. What the hell? If it’s not a tax, its a punitive deterrent. Wouldn’t you agree? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/109 "2011-10-23T02:15:43Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Wrong, that is emotional manipulation. What you are saying is that it’s okay for that person to break the law, that some how the consequences of their actions are different. You fell for the same trick you’re trying to pull on other people. > > No, it’s not a fact, it’s how you view the world. It’s what you do in all these threads. But all of that is besides the point, the poor person still broke the law. Essentially what you’re saying is that it’s okay for the poor to break the law because punishing them isn’t fair. > > Doesn’t it make you wonder why a person who can’t afford a $200 ticket would risk a speeding ticket? Now see this is a strawman, and a retarded one at that. I would like to cite where I said the poor shouldn’t be punished. Otherwise I’d like an apology for misrepresenting me. I said the poor and the rich should be punished equally. Confiscation of a plentiful vital resource is not the same punishment as confiscation of a rare vital resource. For the poor money is rare resource (by definition), and for the rich money (again by definition) is a plentiful resource. Simple god damned logic. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/110 "2011-10-23T02:49:17Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Yes. For example if a billionaire and a pauper committed murder they must both be sentenced to death. I keep telling you that capital punishment is wrong always and everywhere, and you keep coming up with stupid shit like that. What is the deal with you? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/111 "2011-10-23T02:54:03Z")
I’d have no problem with the fine being a set percentage of a person’s income, and can’t see how that could be construed as discriminatory in any way, even tho a rich person would pay a higher dollar amount for a fine than a poor person would. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/112 "2011-10-23T02:59:16Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If taking money from a person is suppose to be a deterrent against driving over a certain speed then yes it has to be that way, actually it should be worded that the fine is $50 million for speeding, but the person’s economic circumstances will be considered so that a person making $50k/y only pays $50 bucks or so. > > If taking money from a person is suppose to be a way of collecting revenue from people driving, which arguably it is, then again yes it makes sense as people who make more can pay more. > > I can not think of any honest reason why the same dollar amount fine should be charged as a fine by civil authority without taking into account that person’s economic circumstances and the impact on their livelihood. Nah. Make it $50T. That way EVERYBODY will have to plead for a financial-hardship adjustment, and back it up with evidence. This frees the judge to make things more equitable on a case-by-case basis. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/113 "2011-10-23T03:02:40Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Nonsense. Confinement is clearly a far lesser punishment for someone who can barely get out of bed anyway than it is for a person in the prime of life. The example (of how absurd the basic concept postulated in the OP gets when one tries to actually apply it) stands. > [@Mosier](#): > > I would argue the opposite. A person with the zeal and vigor of youth is more negatively affected by confinement than a person who just wants to lay in bed all day. You want to read those two arguments again? It doesn’t look like you’re really arguing the opposite… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/114 "2011-10-23T03:11:19Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Kinda like lottery tickets are an additional tax on people bad at math. I’ve never understood this assertion. F’rinstance, my chances of ever having a $25M cash infusion from working or investing are exactly zero. My chance of having it happen from a $1.00 ticket purchase may be 1.2 X 10[sup]-16[/sup], but it doesn’t imply that I’m bad at math to understand that that’s a larger number than zero. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/115 "2011-10-23T04:47:05Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > No, it’s not a fact, it’s how you view the world. It’s what you do in all these threads. But all of that is besides the point, the poor person still broke the law. Exactly, and they are being punished with a proportional amount of pain under this proposal. I realize you like to posture like you’re the last living educated human who thinks marginal utility theory isn’t just wrong, it’s totally backwards, but that’s not really any excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/116 "2011-10-23T06:05:10Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’ve never understood this assertion. Presumably, that’s because you’re bad at math. 😛 > [@](#): > > F’rinstance, my chances of ever having a $25M cash infusion from working or investing are exactly zero. My chance of having it happen from a $1.00 ticket purchase may be 1.2 X 10[sup]-16[/sup], but it doesn’t imply that I’m bad at math to understand that that’s a larger number than zero. Right, and if you multiply the probability of winning times the dollar amount if you were to win, you get what is called the “expected value”, which invariably will come out to less than the $1.00 you paid for the ticket. That’s what people mean. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/117 "2011-10-23T13:08:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because your time is worth more, exactly like I said. Being penalized a week’s worth is a more severe penalty when your week is worth more. Therefore, you are being more severely penalized. A rich person has both more money, \*and \*more free time, than a poor person. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/118 "2011-10-23T14:14:59Z")
Of course I disagree. It’s flatly wrong. Rich people work more hours than poor ones. [Cite](http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2007/03/21/the-workaholic-rich/), [cite](http://www.urban.org/Pressroom/workingfamilies.cfm), [cite](http://www.urban.org/publications/309708.html), [cite](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9505E1D8103FF930A3575BC0A9609C8B63). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/119 "2011-10-23T14:32:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Of course I disagree. It’s flatly wrong. Rich people work more hours than poor ones. [Cite](http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2007/03/21/the-workaholic-rich/), [cite](http://www.urban.org/Pressroom/workingfamilies.cfm), [cite](http://www.urban.org/publications/309708.html), [cite](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9505E1D8103FF930A3575BC0A9609C8B63). > > Regards, > Shodan Hypothetical, Shodan. If Superman spit gum on the sidewalk in Metropolis and caning was a punishment for that there, would you think Superman is equitably punished (like other defendants) by caning there? Similarly, if a person who pumps gas in Oregon for minimum wage is fined a thousand dollars for walking his dog without a leash and Bill Gates is also, are they equitably punished? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311/120 "2011-10-23T15:06:57Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > If I accrue enough violations to have my drivers license revoked, I could quite possibly lose my job. > > If Bill Gates lost his license, he just hires a chauffer. > > Fair? No, not in the sense that it’s equally punishing. Should Bill Gates be forced onto unemployment if he loses his driver’s license? I just saw this. To answer your question, no because by getting that many points you’ve shown yourself not safe to drive, at least according to the law (whether not potential sources of points represent actual hazardous activity is another debate). Taking your license is necessary because other drivers have a right to a safe roadway. However I do believe there should be programs to develop public transportation. What I’d really like is a rail setup like New England has to be broadly deployed. Right now we live in society that says things like “driving is a privileged, not a right”, and yet lacks basic public transportation in many areas with little intent to implement it. Logically the message is anyone who doesn’t have this privilege should fuck off and die. So yeah loss of license leading to destitution is an injustice, but the fix isn’t destitution for everyone who losses their license, but taxis, buses, and trains. Also, if you don’t believe in positive rights. You don’t need a license to drive a [moped](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped). So you have that option too. Although I agree brisk moped ride in the middle of winter isn’t nearly as nice as a limo ride. At the end of the day you can’t make everyone’s punishment truly because of inherent differences in circumstance. You can equalize the punishment as much as possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-rich-speeder-pay-more/600311.md?page=7)