# Should a school be allowed to ban a Confederate flag decal on a student's truck? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915 "2009-05-01T00:52:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/21 "2009-05-01T04:12:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > No, it’s not. It’s different, diminished, but not gone. > > Nonsense. Your interpretation of the flag’s meaning is not the only one possible. I happen to agree that it is racist, but some people who display it do so only out of a desire to honor their history and ancestors. Their history of racism? Of leaving the United States because they might otherwise lose the ability to keep black people in chains? That’s the single ideal that flag was created for. Am I excused to start wearing dual lightning bolts? Some of my relatives did in the past. They’re a part of my history, a part of my heritage, should I do them the honor of displaying these symbols prominently and proudly? After all, other people’s interpretation of these symbols aren’t the only ones possible. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/22 "2009-05-01T04:14:14Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > The confederate flag is not a symbol of racism the same way the civil war wasn’t about racism. But the Civil War WAS about racism, or rather slavery. The claims that it wasn’t are historical revisionism; preserving slavery was the whole point of the Confederacy. So yes, the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism; it stands for a regime that existed to promote it. It stands for a culture that was utterly obsessed with slavery, a culture that had turned itself into a weapon for the preservation of slavery and little else. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/23 "2009-05-01T04:14:46Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > I’m not exactly a fan of his, but what student group does Che Guevara intimidate? Capitalists, man. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/24 "2009-05-01T04:15:59Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > The confederate flag is not a symbol of racism the same way the civil war wasn’t about racism. It is also about what we today call “red state” vs “blue state.” Two cultures in our country, separated by economic means, at odds. I find myself very curious as to whether you are from the South. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/25 "2009-05-01T04:21:48Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > The confederate flag is not a symbol of racism the same way the civil war wasn’t about racism. It is also about what we today call “red state” vs “blue state.” Two cultures in our country, separated by economic means, at odds. Yes, separated by the economic means of “doing the work yourself or paying somebody to do it” vs. “making the dark skinned pseudo-humans do it while you sip lemonade in your white linen suit and occasionally rape their women.” ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/26 "2009-05-01T04:32:31Z")
The Confederate Flag has taken on at least 600 different meanings by now, it’d probably be worth it to talk to the student about it, I know people who have used it as just a generic “wangst rebellion” symbol, just like the Anarachy symbol, Hammer and Sickle, and Star Wars Rebel Flag. Ill advised? Probably. Ill intended? Hardly. That said, as for the actual issue, I’m not sure. On one hand I can see their reasoning here, it could be considered disruptive regardless of intent, but at the same time… eh I may have to actually side with the school on this once, at least force him to cover it up while it’s parked or something, just to avoid “tossups.” ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/27 "2009-05-01T05:03:54Z")
Do the same rules apply to any symbol that might potentially cause problems? For example could a pink triangle worn in support of LGBT be banned on the basis that it’s presence proves disruptive to the learning experience? I understand that one symbol is in support of rights while the other is largely a symbol for racism but the school is supposed to be concerned with disruption alone, right? When I went to school in Texas my district banned any article of clothing that mentioned drugs or alcohol. That means I couldn’t wear my Spuds McKenzie t-shirt or my Jose Cuervo t-shirt with the cool hammerhead shark on it. When I was in Colorado my district didn’t have any such rules. It’d be interesting to see someone in Texas wear a “Legalize Marijuana” shirt and see what happens. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/28 "2009-05-01T05:17:21Z")
> [@](#): > > **omgzebras** : It is literally a symbol created to represent a nation born of racism. It’s a traitor’s flag and if you choose it and the 4 years it represents to symbolize all 200+ years of your culture I think it’s a pretty good indicator of where your interests lie. When you talk about “200 years of your culture” you are talking mostly about the Northern states and coastal areas. With a few exceptions, most of the South was Indian Territory two hundred years ago. New York, for example, has had slavery for almost half of its existence. The Southern state of Virginia has a similar record. But when you get away from coastal areas, that number drops quit a bit. I believe that Tennessee had slaves for less than 70 years. Was New York “born of racism”? Maybe so. All of the states and men that had slaves were certainly traitors to the principals set forth in the \*\*Declaration of Independence \*\*and the **Constitution**. Sadly, that includes Thomas Jefferson and George Washington. Was Thomas Jefferson a racist? He obviously loved a black woman. Maybe it had something to do with “frame of mind” or perspective rather than racism. At any rate, the flag that you speak of was a battle flag. Sometimes it represents racism and is an attempt to bully. Sometimes it represents pride in being from the South. Personally, I wish people would quit using it altogether. But as long as Northerners try to tell us what it means when we know damned well it isn’t limited to that, it will probably be trotted out. > [@](#): > > **Diogenes the Cynic** : Students don’t have the same first amendment rights on school property that they have elsewhere. This has been well established by the courts (remember “Bong hits for Jesus?”), so the free speech issue is irrelevant. > > If a school can limit racist or inflammatory expressions (and it can), then there’s no reason it can’t prohibit a rebel flag. The way that it was explained to us when I was teaching is that the item in question has to actually cause a disruption before it is considered inflammatory. Teachers and school officials can’t just assume that it will be inflammatory or disruptive. > [@](#): > > **Der Trihs** : …preserving slavery was the whole point of the Confederacy. It was a large part of it. States’ Rights was also a large consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/29 "2009-05-01T05:40:19Z")
> [@](#): > > **omgzebras** : Yes, separated by the economic means of “doing the work yourself or paying somebody to do it” vs. “making the dark skinned pseudo-humans do it while you sip lemonade in your white linen suit and occasionally rape their women.” Stereotype much? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/30 "2009-05-01T06:16:24Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > It was a large part of it. States’ Rights was also a large consideration. We’ve been though this many times before, and **Tomndeb** can reference, chapter and verse, using the official \*Articles of Secession, \*that the State’s Right demanded was the right to hold slaves. There is NOTHING that the Confederacy claimed that did not fall back on that. The Confederacy was, if you can excuse my forwardness, founded EXCLUSIVELY on the “right” to hold slaves, and ANY OTHER claim is not only BASELESS but an obscene travesty that warps the words of the Confederacy’s founders. A Confederate flag has no other meaning to anybody except to a Confederate (as in: racist, traitorous asshole) apologist, just like the use of a swastika indicates that the user is a Nazi, with all that entails. There is no other meaning, period. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/31 "2009-05-01T06:39:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > No, it’s not. It’s different, diminished, but not gone. I didn’t say it was gone, I said it isn’t the same. > [@](#): > > Nonsense. Your interpretation of the flag’s meaning is not the only one possible. I happen to agree that it is racist, but some people who display it do so only out of a desire to honor their history and ancestors. I think this is less true now than it used to. I’m originally from the south, and have lived there a lot (Lousiana, Virginia, Florida), and I agree that 20-30 years ago, a lot of people displayed it just as a general symbol of regional pride, and for an aesthetic appreciation, without really putting much, if any, thought into its historical origins or semiotic implications. I had friends who used rebel flags as window shades and bedsreads who never had a racist thought on their heads. In the last 10-15 years, though, I think the flag has become much more politicized, and the provactive motivations of those displaying it so much more prevalent, that it’s all but impossible to be oblivious to its inflammatory potential anymore, and I know for a fact that it’s _often_ displayed simpy as a means of passive-aggressive trolling. Prohibiting the image on a vehicle on a parking lot is a little extreme, in my opinion, but I think the courts have pretty much established that they have a _legal_ right to do it, and that the fear that the image could be inflammatory (regardless of the owner’s intent) is defensible and not capricious. If I was the principal, I’d probably let it go, but I think that _legally_ it’s within the school’s discretion to prohibit it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/32 "2009-05-01T06:44:19Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > It is literally a symbol created to represent a nation _born_ of racism. It’s a traitor’s flag and if you choose it and the 4 years it represents to symbolize all 200+ years of your culture I think it’s a pretty good indicator of where your interests lie. This is exactly correct. The only proper use of a confederate flag is to burn it to piss off racist assholes. > [@dropzone](#): > > We’ve been though this many times before, and **Tomndeb** can reference, chapter and verse, using the official \*Articles of Secession, \*that the State’s Right demanded was the right to hold slaves. There is NOTHING that the Confederacy claimed that did not fall back on that. The Confederacy was, if you can excuse my forwardness, founded EXCLUSIVELY on the “right” to hold slaves, and ANY OTHER claim is not only BASELESS but an obscene travesty that warps the words of the Confederacy’s founders. A Confederate flag has no other meaning to anybody except to a Confederate (as in: racist, traitorous asshole) apologist, just like the use of a swastika indicates that the user is a Nazi, with all that entails. There is no other meaning, period. Yep. The only right fought over was the right to enslave human beings. Let’s be clear, if the government can ban “Bong Hits for Jesus” they can ban the confederate flag. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/33 "2009-05-01T06:51:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m originally from the south, and have lived there a lot (Lousiana, Virginia, Florida), and I agree that 20-30 years ago, a lot of people displayed it just as a general symbol of regional pride… And I, a resident some decades before that, can still understand it as, though the, er, (politically) motherfuckers might try to mask it as something which wasn’t what it was, it had the SOLE meaning of being beholden to the Confederacy. How you and you kin may pretend to describe it, the result is clear. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/34 "2009-05-01T06:58:57Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Yep. The only right fought over was the right to enslave human beings. Look up the articles of secession of the various states. If it isn’t the ONLY right, it’s WAY down the list. There is no way around it: The Confederacy was based on an artificial right to hold some humans in subservience. Anybody who claims otherwise is, by the several many demonstrations otherwise, convicted by your own claims. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/35 "2009-05-01T07:25:07Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Look up the articles of secession of the various states. If it isn’t the ONLY right, it’s WAY down the list. There is no way around it: The Confederacy was based on an artificial right to hold some humans in subservience. Anybody who claims otherwise is, by the several many demonstrations otherwise, convicted by your own claims. Not sure you were as clear as you wanted to be when making this post. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/36 "2009-05-01T08:17:26Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The only right fought over was the right to enslave human beings. Pretty much. “States Rights” was the fig leaf used to cover the shameful truth just like “freeing the Iraqis” is used today even when everybody knows the truth. When one cannot defend their true intentions they are obligated to cover them with such a fig leaf. A good read is the article _The Dividing Line Between Federal And Local Authority_, by Stephen A. Douglas, Harper’s Magazine, vol. 19, issue 112, September 1859, which can be found online. It is all about the rights of the states … to keep slavery. The tone is dismissive of the Republican Party who is just looking for ways to stop slavery in spite of the clarity with which the Constitution makes this a matter for the several states. > [@](#): > > The political organization which was formed in 1854, and has assumed the name of the Republican Party, is based on the theory that African slavery, as it exists in this country, is an evil of such magnitude—social, moral, and political—as to justify and require the exertion of the entire power and influence of the Federal Government to the full extent that the Constitution, according to their interpretation, will permit for its ultimate extinction. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/37 "2009-05-01T10:11:23Z")
[This case](http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa100900a.htm) is probably relevant; it’s the one I was talking about above. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/38 "2009-05-01T12:26:16Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Nonsense. Your interpretation of the flag’s meaning is not the only one possible. I happen to agree that it is racist, but some people who display it do so only out of a desire to honor their history and ancestors. So they’re honoring their ancestors for their armed rebellion against the United States to defend their right to own black people. They should be ashamed of their history and their ancestors for being awful people and traitors. Even if they’re not ashamed, the flag is still a symbol of armed rebellion against the US with deep and completely justified connotations of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/39 "2009-05-01T12:35:19Z")
Displaying the Confederate flg is like burning other flags, or putting a Bush sticker on your bumper. Political speech is protected under the Constitution. ALL political speech, not just that with which the administrators agree. It would be nice if this concept would actually sink in. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/40 "2009-05-01T12:42:52Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > A Confederate flag has no other meaning to anybody except to a Confederate (as in: racist, traitorous asshole) apologist, just like the use of a swastika indicates that the user is a Nazi, with all that entails. There is no other meaning, period. There is, if I recall, at least one poster on this board that owns a fairly well known car that has that flag painted onto the roof. Clearly he has it because he is a traitor and a racist, and not because he is a fan of a fairly well known 70’s TV show, right? The deal is, as someone mentioned here already, 20-30 years ago, the “Confederate Flag” has been politicized, for good or ill, by some groups with an axe to grind. That axe may be legitimate. I can’t make that call, as I am largely removed from any of the issues that are being addressed. Isn’t claiming that the “Confederate Flag” can only stand for one thing guilty of both the Poisoning the Well fallacy, as well as the Excluded Middle? Semi-Hijack: I know a few folks online that dress up in SS uniforms, with lightning bolts and deaths head hats, on occasion. They are WW2 enactors. They find the German Army of WW2 to be fascinating. Most of them also have a basic US Army GI outfit. Are they racists when wearing the SS uniforms, and not when they wear the US uniform? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915.md?page=3)